Q+A: Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern interviewed by Corin Dann
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is unsure when free trade talks with Russia will resume
The Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern told Corin Dann on TVNZ’s Q+A this morning that a nerve agent attack in the UK this
month had “changed everything” in terms of a potential Free Trade Deal with Russia.
“Salisbury has changed things. We are in an unprecedented position now. That has to have an effect, and it has,” she
said.
“We had not resumed FTA talks with Russia and now what I’m telling you is in this environment, I cannot tell you if or
when that will occur.”
Q + A
Episode 3
JACINDA ARDERN
Interviewed by CORIN DANN
JACINDAWell, there are very few other options. And that’s why we have come out and said, ‘This is repugnant. This is a breach
of international law.’ Of course, from the UK’s account, there are very few other places that this could have come from
– in fact, one. And we have been very strong to denounce what has happened here, and so has the Minister of Foreign
Affairs.
CORINNo, he hasn’t, though, because he hasn’t explicitly identified Russia as being the potential perpetrator of this attack,
and I put it to you that you haven’t either just then. Was it Russia? And the language is very important here, because
we’ve been--
JACINDACorin, I’ve been very clear – no one else produces that nerve agent.
CORINYeah, but that--
JACINDASo who else could it be?
CORINYeah, but that still leaves it— It sounds silly, but will you actually say that Russia is responsible? Because there are
people around the world watching what you are saying, and saying, ‘Well, we’re on this side, and all our allies are on
the other side.’
JACINDAI’d actually correct that. We are in exactly the same position as our allies. We stood up in The Hague and said the same
thing. We have called this repugnant and a breach of international law. From the evidence that the UK’s produced, it
suggests that no one else could be responsible. I would actually say that it’s only the New Zealand media that seems to
have interpreted us as being unequivocal. We have been clear about our statements on this, and we have to be. This is
unprecedented, and it is a breach of international law, and we’ve made sure that the UK is clear on our position as
well. This is not something that anyone should or could tolerate.
CORINSo, given that, if you’re saying it is Russia that’s responsible, will you consider sanctions or some form of sanction
against them because of it?
JACINDAThat’s something we’re still talking with our partners around. That request hasn’t come through. It’s not something that
at this point has been suggested, but we are staying in close contact with our partners.
CORINHave you been briefed as part of the Five Eyes? Have you been given intelligence on this attack?
JACINDAI don’t discuss intelligence information or intelligence briefings. I have been in close contact with our Ministry of
Foreign Affairs and Trade, obviously, all the way through this – also with our Minister of Foreign Affairs and our
Minister for Trade and Export Growth.
CORINSo you’re not ruling out the possibility that we would follow with some sort of sanctions.
JACINDAThis is the purpose of why we’re staying in touch. I’m not ruling anything in or out at this stage.
CORINIf we believe that it was Russia responsible for this attack, why are we still continuing with talks with Russia on a
free trade deal?
JACINDAWell, those formal talks never restarted. They were suspended in 2014. Yes, there have been bilateral discussions, as
there have been with a number of other countries since we came in to government. Mostly those have focused on non-tariff
barriers, because keeping in mind the EU, the UK, they all trade within the sanctions that are already in place with
Russia.
CORINSo we’re not doing a free trade deal with them? Because Winston Peters says he is deadly serious – those were his words
– about doing a free trade agreement with Russia. Are you saying that’s not the case?
JACINDAAs I’ve pointed out in a few interviews in recent times, and as the Minister of Foreign Affairs himself has said,
Salisbury changes things, and it has, and so he himself has said this week, it is too early to say if that now will
happen, because we have to take into account the current environment we’re in.
CORINHang on. Just roll me through this. Salisbury changes things. So you’re saying…
JACINDAIt does.
CORIN…because of this attack, you will not do a free trade agreement with Russia?
JACINDAWe’re in a position now—It is too early to say if and when those talks, which were suspended in 2014 and have remained
suspended, will resume.
CORINWhy was that even in the coalition agreement?
JACINDAThe issue that the Minister of Foreign Affairs raised at the time, and has continued to do so since then, is that, as
I’ve said, the EU and the UK, within the sanctions, have continued to trade with Russia. Of course, whilst making sure
that they were—
CORINSo have we.
JACINDAIndeed. But we’ve also had a range of non-tariff barriers apply to us as well. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was
seeking to have the same access as the EU and the UK, but, as I say, Salisbury has changed things.
CORINYeah, but you said in a speech a week or so ago that values were going to be a driving force in your focuses in terms of
foreign policy and our place in the world. Putting aside Salisbury, you agreed to put that in the coalition agreement
that we would look at furthering a free trade deal with Russia, knowing what Russia had done in Crimea, knowing,
arguably, what it’s done in terms of MH17, the US election, all those things. That’s not values-based.
JACINDANo one has ever argued that we would ignore the sanctions.
CORINBut the point is the National government wanted a free trade agreement with Russia; it didn’t want to put it on hold,
and it did. It took a principled stand. It said, ‘We can’t do that,’ and put sanctions in, and it stopped the free trade
agreement. You, in that coalition agreement, agreed to Winston Peters’ request to put it into a coalition agreement so
that we would put it back on the table.
JACINDAI need to correct you there. They suspended free trade talks in 2014, but they continued. There was two-way trade, in
the order of, I believe, $500 million, still continuing between New Zealand and Russia.
CORINBut they imposed travel sanctions.
JACINDAAnd no one has said that we would not apply the sanctions that were in place. And the coalition agreement talked about
striving towards. Now, what I’m saying here, though, is the circumstances we’re in right now means that we don’t know if
and when we will be in a position to resume those talks, because we are taking a stance alongside our partners.
CORINBut you’re not saying that they’re completely gone? They’re not completely off the table? That’s not the end of it?
JACINDA Right now, that is not a discussion.
CORINBecause the other issues that’s cropped up is that you will have heard the language from the UK’s High Commissioner to
New Zealand, in which she made it very clear that it’s not compatible, us having a free trade agreement with Russia and
having an EU and a UK deal.
JACINDAAnd again, the only point that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has made is that Boris Johnson and the UK have undertaken
the order of $5 billion worth of trade in recent times. But, actually, that’s immaterial, Corin, because what I’m
pointing out here today is that we have made the point – Salisbury has changed things. We are in an unprecedented
position now. That has to have an effect, and it has.
CORINBut you mention the $500 million--
JACINDAThere is no but.
CORINWell, no. You say that Europe or Britain is still trading with Russia, but it’s a different story for New Zealand, isn’t
it? We’re smaller, and we have to make choices, and are we willing to sacrifice an EU-UK deal in our meat exports for
flirting with Russia?
JACINDAAnd we have. Actually, we have made choices. No, which is why I have consistently said that we prioritise the EU
agreement. We always have. It is the number-one agenda for us. It’s in the order of $20 billion worth of two-way trade.
That has been our focus. The questions around the Russia FTA have persisted, but in terms of what we’ve been doing as a
government, our conversations have focused solely on non-tariff barriers. We had not – we had not – resumed FTA talks
with Russia, and now what I’m telling you is in this environment, I cannot tell you if or when that will occur.
CORINHave you asked Winston Peters? Or has he given you a reason why he wants to start free trade negotiations with Russia
when he…? I mean, he famously voted against the China free trade deal, the South Korea deal. He’s never been a great fan
of free trade agreements. Did you ask him why he wants this? It seems very odd.
JACINDAI’m clear on what his issue was, and it was a question, as he’s raised before, of fairness. EU and UK both continue to
trade within the sanctions. New Zealand faces a range of non-tariff barriers. He wanted to see those removed, and he
wanted fairness applied. But, look, that’s the discussion that we’ve been having previous to this last week of events,
which he is concerned about, which our Minister of Trade and Export Growth is concerned about, which, of course, as I
say, has changed things.
CORINWho sets foreign policy in your government?
JACINDAUs, as a government – we do collectively. Of course, both our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Trade and myself all have a
role to play.
CORINBecause it does seem that Winston Peters is making comments around Russia, around other issues – potentially China. They
seem a bit out of sync with the overall government.
JACINDAI would dispute that. The language around the repugnant acts in Salisbury, our statement of it being a breach of
international law and our position on where we stand in the future on trade, we’re being consistent on.
CORINWell, he’s never gone as far as you’ve gone today, in which you said that there’s no one else who it could have been. He
has not been prepared to go that far.
JACINDAWell, at this point, there is no other evidence that suggests it could be anyone else.
CORINBut he’s been saying he wants to wait for the inquiry.
JACINDAAnd there is inquiry work actually required under international law. On that, he’s absolutely correct. There is a
requirement that under international law, work is done. But at this point, of course, there’s nothing to suggest it
could be anyone else. Those are simple statements of fact.
CORINMoving on to the other issue which has dominated this week, which has been Labour’s internal issues with the Young
Labour Party. Are you disappointed in how you’ve handled that this week? Do you feel--? You’ve had some criticism that
you could’ve been stronger. I mean, we saw Judith Collins coming out today saying she would’ve ripped their throats out.
I mean, was she actually encapsulating the mood that was necessary here?
JACINDAI guess the question is – whose throats exactly? Because, of course, what I’m mindful of is that this was, ultimately,
rightly or wrongly – wrongly – a camp that was run by young people themselves. Yes, mistakes have been made, and we’re
taking responsibility for that, and we’re working very hard to make sure it never happens again. But I’m also mindful
that I’m not going to heap blame on young people themselves who may have been involved, but instead taking
responsibility as leader – leader within the Labour Party – for what has happened here.
CORINWell, I think the point she was making was that your General Secretary and others, who, when they found out about it—
and, you know, the issues around not telling parents and police and these sorts of things. That’s the point she’s making
is that there was a massive failing there. I mean, do you still have confidence in Andrew Kirton?
JACINDAYes, I do. And I’ve spoken with him at great lengths about the areas where we have failed, where he acknowledges he has
made mistakes. But when it comes to the issue of the police, from the advice that I’ve had professionals in the area
share, that ultimately always has to be driven by those who are involved. Look, as a parent, would I have wanted to
know? Absolutely. But is that something that we can compel or force or should we compel or force? No.
CORINWhy do you still have confidence in him? He let you down badly. It’s naïve to think that he didn’t need to tell you,
isn’t it? I mean, it just seems crazy.
JACINDAYeah, and, again, look, I doubt we’ll ever have a situation in the future where I wouldn’t have that kind of information
shared with me, but at that time, the call was made that the most senior person in the Labour Party, which is actually
our President, was informed, our Senior Vice-President, and they swung in to make sure they were focused on the young
people.
CORINSo the President didn’t tell you either?
JACINDAAnd they were focused on the young people rather than political management. And I stand by that being the more important
question here. So, look, me being told a few days earlier – even if that had been the case, my first question would’ve
been, ‘What are we doing for these young people?’ rather than, ‘How do we politically manage a situation?’
CORINBut their judgement – the judgement of your President and General Secretary – wasn’t up to the mark.
JACINDAWell, it depends on whose test. On the test of whether or not they were focused on those young people at the time they
found out, I’ve seen evidence to show that, yes, they did some of the right things that they should’ve. Did they do it
quickly enough? No. On that, we are absolutely clear; we should’ve been much faster to respond – no doubt. But as I say,
Corin, it’s a moot point around when or where I should’ve known. The fact is what happened still happened to these young
people. Whether I was brought in doesn’t change that. They’re the ones we’ve a duty of care to.
Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz
END
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