Q+A: Willie Jackson, Kiri Allan and Peeni Henare interviewed by Corin Dann
The Labour Party’s Māori members prepare for an election battle
“The real focus for our team is, come September 23, we need that party vote up, up, up - it needs to be at least around
35 for us to form a strong Government and that’s what we are really targeting,” says Labour list candidate and newcomer
Kiri Allan.
Speaking to Corin Dann on TVNZ’s Q+A programme Ms Allan said “for each and every one of us sitting on this panel and
every single one of us on that Labour list we’re there because we can see that there’s a gap that exists between the
haves and the have nots and we don’t think that’s ok.”
When asked about whether the Labour Party had learnt its lesson from the Foreshore and Seabed debacle Tāmaki Makaurau MP
Peeni Henare had this to say “I'm going to tell you now. I think they have, but it's important that we still have the
voices, like myself and others, in there just to constantly remind them, because it's only 10 years ago that happened.”
Also when asked if there was any truth to the speculation that he was asked to step aside from his seat Mr Henare said
“that's a, 'we considered everything and here we are now.”
This week former Alliance MP Willie Jackson was announced as the Labour Party’s Māori campaign director with a list
ranking of 21. When he was questioned about his loyalty to Labour he responded by saying he was born Labour, his father
was a watersider and he was a union official.
And on the issue of Charter Schools or Partnership Schools Mr Jackson suggested that his party would get rid of the name
and get rid of the concept. “But the principle of turning kids' lives around is something that Chris Hipkins believes in
and all of Labour believes in. So call the school whatever you like,” said Mr Jackson.
END
Please find attached the full transcript of the interview and here is the link on our webpage.
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Q + A
Episode 8
Kiri Allan; Willie Jackon; Peeni Henare
Interviewed by Corin Dann
CORINWelcome back to Q+A. Labour finalised its party list this week with a bunch of fresh faces, now with a chance - a real
chance – of getting back into parliament this election, depending, of course, on Labour’s final result. At number 21, a
new face for Labour, but not, of course, an unfamiliar face – Willie Jackson, who once served as an Alliance MP; he’s
also Labour’s new Maori campaign director. At 20 on the list is Kiri Allan, a lawyer and business consultant from
Whakatane. And then Peeni Henare, who’s not on the list but is in the MP for Tamaki Makaurau. Morena to you all.
KIRIMorena.
WILLIEMorena.
PEENIMorena.
CORINThank you all very much for coming on the programme. I wonder, Willie Jackson, if we’d just start with your reaction on
Winston Peters. Is that someone you could work with in a cabinet one day, given his stance on immigration, and those
sorts of issues? Are you comfortable with that?
WILLIEAbsolutely no problem whatsoever. Some of us have good relationships with Winston, and , I know, the party leader has
spoken with him, and he’s someone who’s respected by the public.
CORINWhat about the criticisms that his views are xenophobic?
WILLIEYeah, but that’s been the Winston criticism forever and a day.
CORINSo you just park them, do you?
WILLIEWell, no. The reality is what’s been happening around the world. You’ve seen it in England; you’ve seen what’s happened
in America. People are sick of, I suppose, political correctness. Winston epitomises a lot of what the average man and
woman is talking about, and he’s got a lot of Labour values and principles, so I don’t think there’ll be any problem
whatsoever working with him.
CORINKiri Allan, you’re new. You’re coming through. You would’ve watched Winston for many years. What do you think? Are you
comfortable with him?
KIRIWell, Winston’s your most eloquent, poetic sort of speaker in the House. But, I think, for me, one thing that is I guess
on my mind and on the mind of many of our generation is that we don’t want to talk too much on this cusp around, you
know, fearful language around people that live here. And I think that some of the lines that Winston was taking, you
know, they concern me a little bit, around his references to women in Saudi Arabia. In terms of working in a good
government come September 24, I think the leadership of our party would be really insistent on making sure that it’s
going to be a strong governance team that leads us forward, and if Winston’s in the House, and he’s performed well, and
on the 23rd, no doubt he’ll be a part of that mix.
CORINPeeni Henare, I wonder how you feel about the events over the last week with Willie Jackson coming on the list. I think
you were quoted saying you were a bit sideswiped by the fact that he’s now the campaign director for the Maori
candidates. Are you actually comfortable with him being in the Labour party?
PEENII’m more than comfortable with my matua, Willie, here. Look, I was taken out of context in that interview. We’ve known
that Willie’s had this role for a wee while now. In fact, we had a hui on Waatea Marae to discuss it. The announcement
on the morning of the list was what was a bit of the surprise, because I had already thought that that was a given,
given we had already met on Waatea Marae and already discussed our strategy for this year’s election. So, look, I’m very
relaxed about–
CORINThis is a guy you could’ve been facing from– You were lined up for the Maori party, Willie Jackson, against Peeni.
WILLIEI was talking with the Maori Party. I was talking with Gareth Morgan too. But I think, Peeni, you know, we’re very
close, and we resent sometimes the media trying to make out that there’s no support. Peeni and the Maori MPs voted for
me and our Maori Council probably four weeks ago to take over this position. There’s no difficulty.
CORINBut isn’t the question about whether you’re, in fact, really Labour? That, in fact– Why are you joining the Labour Party? What’s the point?
WILLIEI was born Labour. My father was a watersider. I was a union official–
PEENIIf you have a look across this panel here, my great grandfather was a National MP. My grandfather ran for National. I
delivered pamphlets for NZ First. And now I’m a Labour MP.
CORIN So this is an interesting point. Cos I wonder— So what comes first — is it the— Is it representing Maori and
promoting Maori rights first? Or is it in the Labour party?
KIRI It's our people, you know. Right now, it's actually— All three of us are here because we are passionate about
the situation that our families are in our communities, and right now what we're seeing is that we have this massive gap
between people within our communities, and so many of our families are really, really struggling. And the thing is, this
happens every election year, and of course, it should, you know. The banter starts, but really, for each and every
single one of us sitting on this panel and every single one of us on that Labour list, we're there because we can see
that there's a gap that exists between the haves and the have-nots, and we don't think that that's okay. 300,000 kids
living in poverty.
CORIN But there are tensions, aren't there? Because, Willie, you've been a strong advocate of charter schools. You've
been involved with some. You've talked about how they are good for Maori children, yet you're in a Labour party which
will abolish them.
WILLIE I've already talked with the leadership about that. I'm into any sort of school that will change what's
happening with our kids. You can call it schools, whatever you like, and Labour—
CORIN Chris Hipkins will get—
WILLIE Well, Chris and I have talked about this, and he understands where we're coming from. Our school has qualified
teachers—
CORIN But can you change his mind?
WILLIE No, no, Chris is of the same mind as me. We want schools that will turn our lives around.
CORIN So you're saying Hipkins is okay with a partnership school?
WILLIE No, no, you call it whatever you like, Corin, but if you will bring in a school that will change kids' lives,
that can— You know, we're dealing with families who half the kids have parents are prisoners, for goodness' sake. We're
not in for a profit. We've got qualified teachers.
CORIN I'm not questioning the results at the school. I'm just saying I'm curious as to Labour policy, because Labour
policy is to not have partnership schools.
WILLIE No, no, but Labour—
CORIN How would your school fit under that if you get rid of them?
WILLIE No, no, they'll get rid of the name, and they'll get rid of the concept, but the principle of turning kids'
lives around is something that Chris Hipkins believes in and all of Labour believes in. So call the school whatever you
like.
KIRI And what you've got right now is a government that's slashing its funding in education, right? So you've got
principals that are having to make decisions about whether to fund books in schools, in libraries, or choose between
support staff. So, really, again, if you're boiling it down, it's really— Right now, the priorities of this government
in its education portfolio — and we would say across pretty much all of its social services portfolios — the matrix
isn't working right now, so whether— whatever you call them, we know our kids aren't thriving in these schools, and
that's again— I mean, that's why you're seeing—
CORIN But if a charter school or partnership school works, why wouldn't you do it?
KIRI Well, what I understand is that Chris Hipkins and our team, we're focusing on what does work. Call it what you
will. I don't think that that's the issue, but what we are looking at — what are the results for our kids? And right now
our kids aren't thriving.
CORIN Peeni Henare, I wonder as an MP in caucus, looking at— Helen Clark was talking about the foreshore and seabed in
an interview recently. You know, Labour's looking like it will have a very strong Maori caucus if you do well at the
election. What is the feeling amongst Labour's Maori MPs about that issue a few years on? Because I'm wondering whether
Maori might not trust Labour given the decision they made with that foreshore and seabed — to take away a legal right?
PEENI Look, I— We discussed this earlier. I marched at the same time as all of our whanau did against the decision by
that government, and when I was on the campaign trail in 2014, it was still very raw, the emotion amongst our people,
and my colleagues and I in the Maori caucus in the wider Labour caucus still remind the party of exactly what—
CORIN Do you think they've learnt their lesson? Do you think they have changed?
PEENI Only time will tell. I'm going to tell you now. I think they have, but it's important that we still have the
voices, like myself and others, in there just to constantly remind them, because it's only 10 years ago that happened.
CORIN Kiri Allan, what was your thoughts on that issue as someone young coming through?
KIRI Yeah, look, I think that it was a really incredibly tough time in our party. Our party is 100 years old ay. And
we've done a lot of things right for our whanau Maori—
CORIN But that wasn't one of them?
KIRI ...and for our communities. And I think we've made some some egregious errors as well. And what I do look at— I
look at Jacinda Ardern, I look at Andrew Little; both of whom have made public statements that they think that we as a
party handled the seabed and foreshore wrong. And then I look at the likes of the Willies, and I look at the likes of
Peenis and Willow-Jeans and others coming into our party right now, and I go, 'These guys are— have been ardent
advocates for our people on the ground for many years — long before they put on their political caps and potae, 'Do I
think that we as a strong cohort within Labour, committed to making sure that we don't make those egregious errors
again?' And, yes, I'm confident in our team.
CORIN Willie Jackson, what do you want? Do you want to be the Minister of Maori Affairs in the next Labour-led
government?
WILLIE I think— Look, I wanted to be the prime minister. I told Andrew Little that at the start, so that's the full—
that's the real.
CORIN So that's on the table?
WILLIE Look, I want to advance things for our people. That's why I came into this. John Tamihere and I work in the
community.
CORIN You're not in there to be in opposition, though, are you?
WILLIE No, absolutely not. But John Tamihere and I, we work for our community and for our people. We think that what we
get— we get—
CORIN But to—
WILLIE Hang on, hang on, we get peanuts. We don't get enough dollars, resources back to our communities. That's our
problem. Nothing personal with the Maori party. They try as much as they can. But you ask Merepeka Raukawa-Tait what
Whanau Ora is—
CORINDo you need to be a minister to do that?
WILLIEWell— Well, we can get to that. That's not the point. It's about resourcing. It's about funding. It's about respecting
our people, and that's not happening at the moment, and a Labour government wants to change that.
CORINWell, I just wondered how comfortable the likes of Peeni are about you coming in and effectively lining up potentially
ministerial jobs when there's a whole bunch of Maori MPs already in parliament who might feel you're jumping the queue a
bit here.
WILLIEWell, they're already— No, hang on. They're tremendous young people. Listen to Kiri.
CORINThey've been doing the hard yards in parliament.
WILLIEAbsolutely, and I'll support them, and I— We've got a battle in those Maori seats and Peeni's gonna come through. Kiri
over here is our young star. We're not talking about portfolios now. We're talking about resources and we're talking
about getting to our people who are missing out at the cold face, particularly in the urban areas.
KIRIAnd Corin, those discussions really are a conversation for another day because right now, we're not in government. We're
in Opposition, and the likes of my friend here, Peeni, and all of the other very competent members of our caucus are
sitting there trying to nail the government on all the egregious kind of things that are happening out in our grassroots
communities. But it doesn't matter who wears what after the election. Right now we're not in. And so I think that the
real focus for our team is come September 23, we need that party vote up, up, up. It needs to be at least around 35 for
us to form a strong government and that's what we're really targeting.
CORINPeeni, do you need Willie's help?
PEENIOh, look, we always need Willie's help, and it isn't just Willie. It's John Tamihere. It's all the people in our Maori
communities. It's an important part of the puzzle. We can't just be politicians without the support of our community.
CORINWas there any truth to the speculation that you were effectively asked if you would step aside from your seat?
PEENILook, I said this in another interview. When Kawiti fought every battle in the Far North, he had a different strategy
each time. I think it's important that whenever we come into a new election we consider all options, and now you've got
fantastic options and our voters do, too.
CORINAnd— Is that a yes? You were asked?
PEENIThat's a, 'We considered everything and here we are now.'
CORINAll right. I'll let people make their own mind up about that. What is the-? There was some criticism after the list
announcement, Willie, of yourself — that you kind of ran roughshod over the process and took away the spotlight from
some young talent like Kiri coming through. Are you disappointed with how that was handled or how that went?
WILLIEI'm disappointed not with you but with some of your mates who kept running those lines. As you've heard today, I'm the
Maori Campaign Director. I had to look at the implications of that list announcement. We didn't have any Maori in the
top 15. There's a history to look at. There's a whakapapa to honour. We have to honour Peeni and the other Maori MPs who
came off the list for new people. And so there was a lot—
CORINBut could you not see that it would cause damage?
WILLIENo, no, no. I'm not interested in your deadlines about— You know, the election's five months away.
CORINBut the Labour Party gave us the deadline. They told us.
WILLIEBut I'm not the Labour Party PR officer. I'm the Maori Campaign Director. I've got to look at the implications of a list
where we've got new people coming through, and we've got to talk— I had to talk that through with the leadership. I
haven't said a negative thing about the list. I think it's a great list — diversity, fabulous Maori women, Asians — you
know, it's a terrific list. But I had a responsibility and an obligation to talk about the consequences and the
implications of that list that was going out there.
CORINAll right, guys. I think we need to leave it there, but thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it on
Q+A.