Interview with Israel Prime Minister Netanyahu on
CNN - PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
17 March 2011
PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR,: Prime Minister Netanyahu, first of all thank
you very for inviting me to your residence.
The situation in Japan / Nuclear Energy
I want to start with the appalling events in Japan and get you take on
what's happened there. And your view of what this means for nuclear
energy. Of course, you have two reactors in Israel. What do you think?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: First I think it is a
terrible tragedy because everybody-I look at the pictures in Japan and I
think what every Israeli thinks, and I think what every person in the
world thinks, this could be us. Thousands, tens of thousands of people
lost their lives. Hundreds of thousand, perhaps millions, perhaps tens
of millions living under a cloud.
And I think, first of all, I think about the fortitude of the people of
Japan and their suffering, their stoicism. And I admire that. And yet at
the same time I think of their great agony and their anxiety. You know
there is a difference between natural disasters and what we see today.
Because you have an earthquake, it passes. It could be a terrible
tragedy, but it passes. You have a flood, it passes. A fire, we just had
a great fire. We lost 45 people, horrible, but it passed. We put it out
in 72 hours.
But this is different. This is a confluence of a natural disaster and a
man-made disaster and the cloud of radioactivity. The uncertainty of
what will happen is the cloud that hangs over the people of Japan, and I
think right now, hangs over the world. It certainly caused me to
reconsider the projects of building civil nuclear power plants. I have
to tell you I was a lot more enthusiastic about it than I am now. In
fact, you'd have to give me a very good argument to do it. And
fortunately we found natural gas.
MORGAN: Are you saying that-
NETANYAHU: We could make up the difference.
MORGAN: Are you saying that you might actually stop any kind of nuclear
program in Israel?
NETANYAHU: We didn't have any civilian nuclear energy. We have some
research plants, but not anything on a significant scale. And I don't
think we're going to pursue civil nuclear energy in the coming years.
I think, you know, we always blame Moses, that he was our greatest
leader and one of the most gifted people in the world. He brought us the
moral code and so on, belief in one God, but then he was a bad
navigator. He brought us to the only part of the Middle East without any
gas, without any oil. Turns out he wasn't such a bad navigator, because
we found some gas offshore. So, I think we'll go for the gas. I think
we'll skip the nuclear.
MORGAN: Do you think that a lot of other countries may follow suit? Do
you think the whole idea of nuclear energy as being the future, because
of what happened in Japan may now be-what? To put it mildly, in chaos?
NETANYAHU: Well, you have to give it some thought. I mean, how could you
not take pause and think about this? I mean, civil nuclear energy is
tremendously efficient, tremendously productive. It was seen as
environmentally friendly, but when you have this kind of shock and the
inability to even get there with, you know, the kind of firefighting
planes that we just used to put out the great forest in the Carmel --
You know, I brought in squadrons of people from 10 countries, everybody
pitched in. I was very grateful for that.
You can't get to the fire. You can't get to the radioactivity because
you can't fly over. And if you try to squirt water from a greater
distance, it just disperses. So this is a real issue. Unless we find
solutions to this challenge, then I think that leaders should reconsider
the expansion of civilian nuclear energy.
The Upheaval in the Middle East
MORGAN: Let's turn to the reason I'm here; the winds of change in the
Middle East. You have not given a major TV interview since all this
began in December in Tunisia. Let me take you back to December and the
events of Tunisia. Did they take you by surprise? What was your
immediate reaction? And did you ever imagine that it would create the
kind of domino effect that we have been seeing?
NETANYAHU: First, it didn't begin in Tunisia. It began in Tehran a year
and a half ago. Millions went to the streets and called for freedom, for
democracy, from this repressive regime and they were put down brutally.
And then it, you know, it came back in Tunis. And then from Tunis it
went to Cairo, and then from Cairo it is going everywhere.
Did I expect it at this time? No. Did I expect it at one time, at
sometime? Yes. Because the spread of information technology creates an
inevitable conflict; that is, in many ways, the 20th century passed by a
lot of the Arab world and the Muslim world. And in comes the information
technology of the 21st century and it is telling all these people what
they missed out on. And this creates the turbulence. Will it end
quickly? I doubt it. I think each country is different but they are
all-they all suffer the same gap between people's expectations and the
performance of their societies up to now.
The Iranian Factor
MORGAN: I mean, the big question that everyone has been asking,
repeatedly, in the last two months is, what does this mean for Israel?
If you are the Israeli prime minister and you have been watching what
has been going on in the region. Are you fearful of what this means for
your country? Are you partly excited by the spread of democratic
freedom? What is the reality of being Benjamin Netanyahu, watching this?
NETANYAHU: Well, you know we all have our hopes and we all have our
fears. You are looking at this and two places cheered what was happening
in Cairo. One was Washington, and its allies. The other one was Tehran,
and its allies. You know they weren't seeking the same outcome. You know
there is a fundamentally different outcome that each was seeking. We had
all hoped, and we still hope, that you will have a democratic
transformation. That the, you know, the Google kids, the Facebook kids,
you will create a Google heaven and a Facebook paradise, and all these
people will come to power. That is obviously what people in the West,
and people in free societies would like to see. It is not clear that
that would happen.
MORGAN: What is the nightmare scenario for you?
NETANYAHU: That you get another Iran. That you get-you had a revolution.
Five years ago in Lebanon a million Lebanese, that is the equivalent to
20 million Egyptians, walked in the streets of Beirut, chanting for
freedom, chanting for secular reformist, a liberal Lebanese state. Five
years later Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah, which is controlled by
Iran. That is what we don't want to see. We don't want to see this stark
Medievalism that represses women, that crushes the rights of people,
that holds us back a millennia. That fosters violence. That does
everything that we abhor. That it would take over.
And I think that these are the two poles. One is real democratic change
and the other is a descent to militant Islamism that squashes all
freedoms and threatens the peace of everyone.
MORGAN: I remember watching the scenes from Tahir Square, in Cairo, when
they were jubilant at the thought of Mubarak going. And then we cut to
scenes from Gaza, where there were equally wild celebrations. And as you
say, they were not celebrating the expansion of democratic freedom in
Egypt. They were celebrating the overthrowing of Mubarak and the
possibility, perhaps, for them to do a similar thing potentially in
Israel.
NETANYAHU: Well, look, Mubarak kept the peace. Egypt kept the peace for
over 30 years and it should be remember and appreciated. The people in
Gaza, and those who are affiliated with Hamas, want to see the collapse
of the peace and the eradication of Israel. They are supported by Iran,
that has given them tens of thousands of mortar shells, rockets. They
fired already 6,000 rockets and missiles on Israel. So clearly that is
not a force for peace or for progress.
There are other people in Gaza, but they are in fact subjugated by
Hamas. They are not given any choice, any more than the people in Iran
were given a choice. They are not given a real choice for freedom. They
are knocked down.
You know, if you can give me a deal. If God came down from heaven and
said, here, I'll give you a choice. OK, this revolution from the Khyber
Pass to the Straits of Gibraltar, that is shaking everything in place,
except us, because we are an open, democratic, prosperous society. But
everybody else is suffering this groundswell, this earthquake, this
sandstorm, volcanic eruptions, OK? But it also includes the place where
it started, Tehran. And Tehran is transformed into a democratic society.
I would say it is worth it. Because the Middle East would have a
brilliant future.
MORGAN: How unnerving-
NETANYAHU: But there is something that I think-if you want to know the
worst outcome?
MORGAN: Hmm?
NETANYAHU: The worst outcome is Iran, where this all started, stays
immune to it. Continues its repressive, brutal regime, develops nuclear
weapons, exports terrorism everywhere. And muddles in-meddles, rather-in
the other places and transforms them into so-called Islamist republics.
And I would say that is the worst nightmare.
Changes in Egypt
MORGAN: I mean there could be no doubt that Ahmadinejad and the Iranians
will be looking at the situation, looking for opportunity. There can be
no doubt about that. They have made their intentions re Israel very
clear. You must have been pretty disconcerted by loosing Hosni Mubarak.
I mean, to other people he may be a dictator. To Israel, he's been a
pretty good friend, hasn't he?
NETANYAHU: Egypt under Sadat, and then under Mubarak, kept the peace and
I think that is something extraordinary valuable. And I think the first
order of the day is to make sure that any future government in Egypt
maintains the peace. The fact that we had these 30 years with Egypt, 20
years with Jordan, of a real peace, is something that I can appreciate.
Because-
MORGAN: Were you sad to see him go?
NETANYAHU: Well, I was concerned that we might have the opposite of what
people want and what we all want. We want to see a democratic reformed-
MORGAN: You spoke to him?
NETANYAHU: I called him once. He didn't return my call. He was otherwise
engaged. But I can appreciate that fact that Egypt was at peace. We want
our main concern is to make sure that it continues in peace. If it gets
to an open reformist democratic society we'll be the first to cheer,
because a genuine democracy is a friend of peace. A genuine democracy,
with all the institutions, and the checks of balances of a democracy,
and a free press and a magistrate.
MORGAN: How fearful are you-
NETANYAHU: That is peace.
MORGAN: How fearful are you about the Muslim Brotherhood? There are two
schools of thought. One is that they are not contaminated with too much
fundamentalism. Others think they may well be.
NETANYAHU: That is what people said about Hamas. That is what people
said about Hezbollah. That is what people said about Khomeini. I
remember, you know-I give you an example of the Cedar Revolution, the
secular, liberal, open, pro-Western Cedar Revolution in Lebanon? There
was a revolution in Iran in 1979. And it began with Shapur Bahktiar
(ph). Remember him?
MORGAN: Uh-huh.
NETANYAHU: He was a Western-oriented, open governance and so on. And he
was disposed after three months. So, the question is, what do you get.
You get 1979 in Iran, and you get 1989 in Western Europe-Eastern Europe.
In Eastern Europe they turned towards democracy, in Iran they turned
towards a backward theocracy. And I have not seen a single case in which
the Muslim Brotherhood, of its various shapes and hues, turns toward the
European liberal model. They invariably turn to more closer,or identical
to the Iranian model.
Libya
MORGAN: Let's turn to Libya where it is a pretty disconcerting picture
now emerging. Where Gadhafi appeared to be on his way out, but has now
forced his way back and appears to be winning the battle against the
protestors. No one has intervened on the behalf of those protestors.
What do you make of what is happening there?
NETANYAHU: Well, Gadhafi is no friend of Israel. He's not friend of the
Jewish people. And I think his people can see now, he's no friend of the
Libyan people. This is a man who helped explode civilian airlines in the
skies. He's fostered terrorism. He's done a lot of terrible things. So I
don't think anybody would be sorry to see him go.
I wouldn't.
MORGAN: What if he doesn't go?
NETANYAHU: I think-I think the case of Libya is an interesting place
where values and interests cohere. You know, as a leader you often have
a situation where you want to advance a set of values, free democratic
societies, and at the same time you may have overriding interests that
force you to think otherwise. I don't see that conflict in the case of
Libya. I think he could be done away with and I think everybody would
benefit.
MORGAN: Would you bring in a no-fly zone? No?
NETANYAHU: Well, I wouldn't second guess President Obama and people who
have to make that decision. I'm sure he wants what I've just said. How
to achieve is something I leave to him, but I think that the cost of
firm action in Libya is relatively small. And the consequences, I think,
would be quite-I think quite beneficial.
MORGAN: I mean, there is-
NETANYAHU: Certainly beneficial to the people of Libya.
MORGAN: I mean, everyone seems to be in agreement that he's got to go.
My point is that he's not going. And he's made it clear he wont' go. And
he appears to be winning his battle by mercilessly killing any
protestors. We are seeing something that bordering on genocide here. Is
there not a moral compunction for America, for the West, generally, to
get in there and sort this out?
NETANYAHU: I think it is one of those cases where the moral compunction,
as you say it, and the interests cohere. I don't think it is a problem.
So I wouldn't rule out very firm action against Libya. I think that is
something that should be considered seriously.
MORGAN: If America-
NETANYAHU: I'm sure it is being considered.
MORGAN: If America decided to take military action, would you support
that?
NETANYAHU: Certainly wouldn't be against it.
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf
MORGAN: Moving to Saudi Arabia, some fascinating developments in
Bahrain. It would appear that Saudi forces have been in there and that
is a pretty surprising development, isn't it? What do you make of that?
NETANYAHU: I don't think it is surprising at all. I mean, I think they
are concerned with a possible Iranian take over of Bahrain, which would
put Iran, effectively within spitting distance of the Arabian Peninsula.
Now, Saudi Arabia is working to protect its own interests. But there is
a very large global interest in making sure the world's oil wells, that
the largest reserves of the world's oil supply do not fall into Iranian
or pro-Iranian hands. So here is an issue-here is a place, where, you
know, theoretically values and interests could contradict. If the
possibility is that Saudi Arabia is governed by the current regime, or
Saudi Arabia is governed by Iran, I don't think there is much of a
problem in people making up their minds what they want, of these two
alternatives.
MORGAN: You refer regularly to Iran. Everybody knows your view about
Iran. That they believe in the extermination of all things Israel.
NETANYAHU: It is not only that they believe it. It is look at what they
are doing, now.
Israeli Policy toward Iran
MORGAN: But what about flipping it on its head and saying, what are you
doing about that? Given that you know that is their position? I mean,
rather than wait for other countries to intervene on your behalf. What
is Israel actually doing right now to combat this incredibly serious
threat?
NETANYAHU: Well, the first thing I have been trying to do-for a long
time-for about 15 years, I was elected the first time about 15 years
ago. And I went to speak at the-before the joint session of the U.S.
Congress. And I said that the single greatest threat facing the world,
and my own country, was the arming of Iran with nuclear weapons. And
since then what I have been trying to do is alert the world and the
leaders of the world that it is not merely our problem, that it is their
problem. Because Iran today is in Afghanistan, it is in Iraq, it has
gotten control of Lebanon. It has gotten control of half the
Palestinian-
MORGAN: Does it have nuclear weapons, do you think?
NETANYAHU: It is working to get them.
MORGAN: How close do you think they are?
NETANYAHU: I think they are getting a lot closer.
MORGAN: Should they be transparent about their nuclear program?
NETANYAHU: Even to the extent that they are transparent it is very clear
what they are doing? They are-they have enriched enough material now
almost for three nuclear bombs. They still have to re-enrich it again,
but that is what they are doing. They are building long-range ICBMs, not
only to reach us, ICBMs, they don't need that.
MORGAN: When we last saw this threat from a leader in the Middle East it
was Saddam Hussein.
NETANYAHU: Yeah?
MORGAN: It turned out that the weapons of mass destruction didn't exist,
but there was a perceived threat that he had them. We're in a similar
position with Iran, aren't we? I mean what does the world-
NETANYAHU: No.
MORGAN: But what does the world do about Iran?
NETANYAHU: No, we are not. We're not. First of all, Saddam Hussein did
build a nuclear weapons plant. It was called Osiraq, and we took it out,
in 1981; probably one of the greatest acts of nuclear non-proliferation
in modern times. But now, afterwards, it wasn't clear if he recovered
that or not, and as it turned out he didn't. This is very different in
the case of Iran. Ahmadinejad is taking people on guided tours of these
centrifuge halls (ph).
MORGAN: Why is nobody doing anything about it?
NETANYAHU: They are trying, with sanctions, tough sanctions. I don't
think-
MORGAN: He doesn't care about sanctions, does he?
NETANYAHU: It is not only him. It is his boss. He's not the boss. The
boss is Khamenei, who has a passion against the West, a passion against
our society.
MORGAN: What is the answer, Prime Minister? What do you do about this
country which is apparently arming itself to the teeth, possibly getting
nuclear weapons? And you are its number one target. What are you doing
about it?
NETANYAHU: Well, one of the things that we are telling people is that
sanctions by themselves are not going to be enough. That the only thing
that will work is if Iran knew that if sanctions fair there will be a
credible military option. This is not just our problem, this is the
problem of Europe, and the United States-
MORGAN: Are you talking United Nations?
NETANYAHU: I'm talking about a credible military action-
MORGAN: Lead by who?
NETANYAHU: Lead by preferably by the United States. It is not that
complicated. It could be done. It is not easy, but it is not impossible.
And here is the paradox. The paradox is that if you had a credible
military option you probably wouldn't have to use it. Because the one
time that the Iranians backed off-in the 15 years that I've been talking
about this-that they backed off and actually stopped their nuclear
program, was in 2003 when they thought that the United States, following
its actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, would take action against them. So
they stopped and you know...
MORGAN: It's a parallel perhaps that's most (inaudible) here, the one
involving Gaddafi where he is perceived of giving up his nuclear program
precisely because of what happened in Iraq.
NETANYAHU: Well he stopped - he stopped too and he actually offered to
dismantle the program and the west had to choose whether to bring him
into the fold, (I know) this very unappetizing person but they decided
to do that because they, again, they weighed their values against their
interest and he was a supreme interest to get Gaddafi away from nuclear
weapons. They did the right thing.
Can you imagine what would happen now if Gaddafi had atomic bombs?
MORGAN: Well that's my point. But what is credible military action
against Iran? What does that constitute?
NETANYAHU: It means action that will knock out their nuclear facility
and (inaudible)...
MORGAN: (Inaudible) could you contemplate some kind of land invasion?
NETANYAHU: Well, I think the United States has proven great
effectiveness and I'm going to divulge a secret to you about their
capabilities. They're actually greater than ours. I mean, the American
Air Force and the American Army is bigger than...
MORGAN: If - if - for (inaudible).
NETANYAHU: ...the Israeli Army and they're absolutely....
MORGAN: But if for whatever reason the Americans choose not to do this,
the threat still remains and you're still the number one target, would
you act unilaterally militarily?
NETANYAHU: No. We always reserve the right to defend ourselves. That's
been one of the tragedies of Jewish history that the Jewish people were
thrust into a state of defenselessness we were attacked again and again
and again with viciousness and never had the capacity to defend
ourselves. We now have that capacity.
MORGAN: Do you have nuclear weapons?
NETANYAHU: Well, we have a long-standing policy that we won't be the
first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East and that hasn't
changed.
MORGAN: You don't have any?
NETANYAHU: That's our policy. Not to be the first to introduce nuclear
weapons into the Middle East.
MORGAN: But if you take an assumption that other countries have them
then that may mean you have them.
NETANYAHU: Well, it may mean that we don't pose a threat to anyone. We
don't call for anyone's annihilation. We don't foster terrorism. We
don't threaten to obliterate countries with nuclear weapons but we are
threatened with all these threats. We have not fired thousands of
rockets into our neighbors (inaudible)...
MORGAN: Is it right to expect countries like Iran to be transparent
about their own nuclear programs if you're not transparent yourself?
NETANYAHU: Well, Iran is a signatory to the NPT. I mean this is the
absurd thing. Everybody says take the Nonproliferation Treaty and expand
it and bring Israel into it. No, the problem in the Middle East is not
that other countries don't join it, it's that those countries who join
the Nonproliferation Treaty have violated left and right beginning with
the Iraq under Saddam Hussein going on to Libya, Syria recently -
they're all signatories of the NPT. They all developed nuclear weapons
programs. Syria just did that and was exposed and Iran is doing it every
day. So they're all...
MORGAN: Do you think it's a bit of a sham?
NETANYAHU: I think - I think it's ridiculous. I think the problem of the
Middle East is one that the signatories of the NPT violated and secondly
that they're focusing their attention on Israel when the problem in the
Middle East is this tyrannical medieval regime, terrorist regime of Iran
in which the (moulas and the atolas) want nuclear weapons with which
they openly threaten to wipe out - to make another holocaust, to wipe
out the Jewish state.
But that's just for starters. They say that we're the small Satan, that
the United States is a great Satan and I suppose Europe, I don't want
you to be offended, Europe's sort of a middle - middle sized Satan. All
of these have to be dominated, obliterated, terrorized, and they're
actually true to their word.
And I think this fanatic ideology armed with nuclear weapons is the
single greatest threat to the peace of the world, to the peace not only
of Jerusalem but of London, Berlin, Paris.
MORGAN: Given the gravity of the threat...
NETANYAHU: And New York.
MORGAN: Given the gravity of the threat from Iran, if America has not
taken military action within say, the next five years, is it conceivable
that Israel will not have done anything?
NETANYAHU: Well, we always reserve the right to defend ourselves.
The Palestinian Issue
MORGAN: Prime Minister, there was a horrific murder of the Fogel family
last week. The details of which are chilling to read. What was your
reaction to that, and where are you with the investigation into the
perpetrators?
NETANYAHU: This was horrific. It was savagery. I mean, several
Palestinian terrorists came into the home of this Jewish family in the
West Bank. They stabbed a three-month old baby girl in the heart, cut
her throat. They stabbed her four-year old brother in the heart, cut him
in the throat. They stabbed the father with another child and stabbed
the mother and left them dying in their blood.
And then I visited the family and I saw the 12-year-old girl, a sister
who came home and saw this unbelievable massacre. So obviously the first
response is sheer horror. And my second response was to send a message
to the settlers to contain their rage and not respond because we'd have
a cycle of reprisals so I asked them to - not to take the law in their
own hands, not to have vigilante actions because this would - could
generate a blood bath. I thought that was important to stop that.
But we're now looking for the killers. We'll find them.
MORGAN: Are you making progress?
NETANYAHU: Some. Some. I think we'll find them.
MORGAN: There was - to put it mildly - a raised eyebrow collectively
around the world. First, of the horrifying nature of this attack, but
secondly at your response. The premise of, they murder, we build. You
ordered the building of 500 more building settlements. It's a strange
moral equivalence, Prime Minister.
I mean, part of the problem that you face now in Israel is perception
around the world. Your PR is not good, as you know. When people heard
about what happened, I think the international community completely on
your side and the people of Israel. When they see you immediately
ordering more settlements, I'm sure you did it to calm down the people
as you say, a lot of that sympathy erode. People think, come on, there's
got to be a better way of responding to this kind of thing than doing
that.
NETANYAHU: Well I wanted to send three messages. The first one I told
you about, that is a message of restraint to the settlers. The second is
a message to the terrorists. I was telling them, I know you think you're
going to uproot us with this savagery, with the violence, with terror.
You're not going to uproot us. So you kill us, you want to drive us into
the sea, that's not going to happen. You only way we'll have a
settlement is through peaceful negotiations. So you kill, we'll build.
But coincidentally I chose to build in the large populated areas that
are going to stay in Israel anyway. And not 500 new settlements but 500
apartments, which is very different.
And third, I wanted to send a message to the international community. I
said to the international community that rushes to condemn Israel for
every building that is built. You know, a Jew builds an apartment in the
Jewish homeland. What a terrible crime. But they seldom go and condemn
this kind of savagery without any ands, ifs and buts and I wanted that
condemnation. I was glad to see -
MORGAN: But is that true?
NETANYAHU: - I was glad to see -
MORGAN: But is that true? I mean, does the international community
really not just condemn that kind of outrage out of hand? Because I read
that they did. And the point about the settlements is surely that you
are trying to get a peace process to work. You're trying to get to some
settlement.
The Middle East quartet only yesterday said they've almost given up hope
that peace is achievable at the moment. You were the first prime
minister of Israel to be born after '48. You can a key position is
history here. You've been prime minister before. You didn't get the
peace process through then. You've got another chance now.
Doesn't part of you, Benjamin Netanyahu, look at yourself and think, I
want to be the guy that makes this happen, not the guy that didn't make
it happen?
NETANYAHU: Seven prime ministers have tried to get peace with the
Palestinians since the peace process began in Oslo in 1993. Some of them
made extraordinarily generous concessions and it didn't work because the
Palestinians first under Arafat and now under Abu Mazen have not picked
it up. They refuse to go the distance and actually recognize the Jewish
state and make the compromises that are required from both sides.
The entire world is focusing on the compromises that are necessary from
Israel's side. And I'm prepared to make a lot of those compromises for
peace. But they're not focusing on the fact that the Palestinians refuse
to make the necessary compromises that are required on their side for
peace. And the simplest thing to do - here you're talking about moving
the peace process forward - how do think - what do you think is the best
way to arrive at a negotiated settlement?
MORGAN: Honestly? What do I think?
NETANYAHU: Yes.
MORGAN: When Sadat came to Jerusalem bearing concessions it worked. Why
don't you go to Ramallah and be the big guy here? Why don't you go and
take concessions, which are perhaps more than you're prepared to give
right now and say, I'm calling the bluff here, not just as the
Palestinians but as the international community.
Because I'll tell you what would happen. The international community is
desperate for this to work. They would come with you. And yes, there
would be, of course, problems. Yes, there would be more outrages.
Everybody knows that. But in the end somebody has to be the big guy here
and that could be you, couldn't it?
NETANYAHU: I'm pretty big.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: Yes, you are. You are.
NETANYAHU: But, to get -
MORGAN: But doesn't history need people to be courageous?
NETANYAHU: Yes. Yes, it does. But peace requires two to tango. And what
I'm - what I said - suggested the simplest thing is exactly what you're
said. I said to Abu Mazen who was flying around in the world - the
Palestinian president - I said, don't fly around the world. You want to
make peace? Ramallah, where you said, is 10 minutes away from Jerusalem
where we're sitting right now. I'm willing to come to you. You can come
here. Let's sit down, shut the room, you know, basically sit down until
smoke comes out.
That's the way you make peace. That's how we made peace with Egypt.
That's how we made peace with Jordan.
MORGAN: Why isn't it happening?
NETANYAHU: Because I think the Palestinian society is split into two -
those who are openly calling for Israel's destruction like Hamas, and
those who are not calling openly for Israel's destruction but refuse to
confront those who do. And that's the Palestinian authority. I think
they're timid, I think they're afraid to actually stand up to these
killers. And I think that they're afraid, maybe for their own sake, for
their own political hides, sometimes for their own physical safety.
And they don't take that necessary plunge.
I think it's possible to achieve that peace. I'll tell you what, I've
always wanted it because I went through war. I went through war in
Egypt, I nearly drowned in the Suez Canal in the fire fight during the
War of Attrition -
MORGAN: You were shot, yourself.
NETANYAHU: Yes, I was shot rescuing a hijacked -
MORGAN: You know the reality of war.
NETANYAHU: I've lost -
MORGAN: They will say military people that have been through that kind
of thing, they've seen friends, colleagues get killed, they understand
better than most and need to bring peace.
NETANYAHU: Not only understand but cherish it. I mean, I've nearly died
several times in fire fights. I had a brother lost in a battle. I had
many friends lost. I mean, one of - the experience that I remember was
as an 18-year-old soldier, just a few short weeks after entering the
army, holding a friend who died in my arms. You don't want war.
Amid all the pundits who explain to us that Israel doesn't want peace,
where are they living? We're an embattled country. They're trying to
destroy us. They threaten our -
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: What parallels do you see?
NETANYAHU: We want peace more than any other people. We pray for peace,
yearn for peace, dream about peace. I want to make sure that the peace
holds. One of the things that I've said in this part of the world, the
only peace that would hold is a peace that you can defend. So I'm
willing to make that kind of peace, a peace with security.
People say to me, hey listen, just sign on the dotted line and
relinquish those things, those security assets that allow you to protect
the peace. Then I'll say we'll end up without security and without
peace. But I'm willing for a defensible peace to make the tough choices
and I call on Abu Mazen, the Palestinian president, to - I don't fault
him for traveling around the world. If he likes it, he can do it. But
I'm saying, listen, come back here. I'll go to Ramallah and you can go
here -
MORGAN: What is the big concession? What's the concession you're
prepared to make to make this happen? Because you know if you don't make
one, if you don't do something dramatic here, nothing's going to happen.
You'll go down as a guy who was prime minister twice and it never
happened. And I don't think that's a legacy you really want, is it?
Why would you want that legacy?
NETANYAHU: Well the legacy I want is that I hope to secure the life the
Jewish state and its future. We did have - we did act precipitously. We
walked out of Gaza. We uprooted. Talk about concessions. We uprooted
10,000 Israelis out of Gaza, just eliminated the settlements that were
supposed to be the obstacle to peace. We walked out, Iran walked in. We
didn't get peace.
We walked out of Lebanon, every last inch. We walked out, Iran walked
in. From Lebanon they fired 6,000 rockets at us. This is a country the
size of New Jersey. From Gaza, after we walked out, they fired 6,000
rockets at us. Now, they say, "Just walk out of the West Bank. Make the
concession. Come on, do it again, a third time."
We could be in a position where we can't live. So my concern is, I want
peace for Israel but I want a peace that we can defend and I want a
peace that will hold. And I know that that's peace with security. I know
that's what we have to insist - and I insist - unabashedly so - on peace
with strong security arrangements.
One of the leading European statesmen told me the other day - I was
sitting where you are - well in that couch. He said, you know, three
months ago when you said in the context of a peace treaty between Israel
and the Palestinians that you would need to stay along the Jordan River
because you never know what would happen on the other side.
The Jordan River, mind you, is all of the distance of the Washington
beltway, greater Paris from here. Nearby. So we'd have to have some line
on the Jordan River to prevent Iran from penetrating into Israel and
placing another 100,000 rockets aimed at our cities. He said, people
didn't understand what you're talking about. He said, now after the
convulsions, this earthquake people understand your insistence of
security a lot better.
So I would say the first condition of peace, we'll make concessions,
obviously. We'll have to make territorial concessions and that's hard.
This is our ancestral homeland. This is the land of the bible.
MORGAN: Would you give up Jerusalem? Everyone tells me you would if I
came to it.
NETANYAHU: I don't know what everybody is saying. I'll tell you what we
say. We say that Jerusalem has to remain united under Israel. That's our
position going into the negotiations. I know it's a very emotional issue
for the Palestinians. So we've agreed - I've agreed - to have this issue
brought up in the negotiations -
MORGAN: Could you imagine -
NETANYAHU: We'll have to look for very creative solution here.
MORGAN: I understand. I understand. But that's what you need to do. I
mean, I've just read Tony Blair's book, for example, who's the Middle
East envoy now. I know you know him well. His account of -
NETANYAHU: And appreciate his efforts.
MORGAN: Right. His account of how he finally won peace in northern
Ireland is a riveting account. Two completely intransigent parties
living side by side. The parallels are pretty obvious. Different
circumstances. But you have two people who don't trust each other,
they've been killing each other for decades but eventually they brought
peace. And it can be done. But it needs big people of big times to take
big decisions.
NETANYAHU: It needs one other thing that you overlooked.
MORGAN: Which is?
NETANYAHU: Look at northern - everything you said about north Ireland is
right except one thing. The IRA never wanted London. They never wanted
to destroy Britain and take over it.
MORGAN: They wanted to give everyone in the British government and
tried.
NETANYAHU: Maybe. But they had no -
MORGAN: But a maybe? They did.
NETANYAHU: But they had no territorial claim over the British isle. They
wanted what they wanted in northern Ireland. In the case of the
Palestinian society, Hamas openly declares that it wants to wipe out not
the heads of the Israeli government, but every Israeli. Wipe away the
Jewish state. They openly say so. Their constitution -
MORGAN: But if you made the big move -
NETANYAHU: And -
MORGAN: Let me just say this. If you made the big move, you know that
the international community and crucially America, would be absolutely
side by side with you. They want this to happen. And you also know if
you don't make this happen, then the opposite may happen. You may lose
the support, not just of large parts of Europe, which is already
beginning to (INAUDIBLE), you can feel it, but America may start going
cold because they'll say, come on, this has to be done. It's too
important now.
And also it's no longer just about Israel and the Palestinians. It's
about the whole region. The whole region is unstable. You have many
battles to right now.
NETANYAHU: The instability in the region is not a result of Israel and
the Palestinians. That was never the cause of this instability. Instead,
the disfunctionality of many of these societies that have failed to
modernize -
MORGAN: Well, that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was
making, though, is that it's no longer the only story in town, is it?
NETANYAHU: No, it's not.
MORGAN: But isn't this a good - ironically we're sitting here now with
this part of the region being one of the calmer places. Isn't that the
perfect time to make this happen?
NETANYAHU: If you can be sure of who your partner will be tomorrow.
You're not even sure of that. You want to make sure that you have solid
(INAUDIBLE) of security and you also want mutual reconciliation.
We recognize the rights of the Palestinians for a state of their own.
Even though they're sitting in part of our ancestral homeland, it's very
painful to do that. But I've been doing it. I've been saying it. But
they refuse to say that they recognize a Jewish state, a nation state
for the Jewish people.
I'm talking about - I'm not talking about the Hamas, I'm talking about
the Palestinian Authority that should confront Hamas and confront their
own people and say, hey, it's over. We give up the ghost of dismantling
Israel or dissolving Israel or flooding it with refugees. It's over. 'No
more war, no more bloodshed,' Just as Sadat said. I want to hear that
clear statement but I'm willing, I've already made those statements.
And so the problem you have in the international community is that the
Palestinians do not want to put a finality to the conflict, do not want
to say that a Palestinian state will be an end to a conflict and not a
stage in the dissolution of Israel. Now, they speak peace to the outside
but not to their own people.
To their own people - on the day that these people - this family was
savagely brutalized - brutally murdered - babies were stabbed - on that
day, the Palestinian authority had a square called al-Bireh, which is a
suburb of Ramallah, in name of a terrorist who murdered 37 Israelis on a
bus, including 12 children. To the outside world they speak peace.
Internally they foster a culture of hate.
And I tell them, enough. We don't have that. We're a totally transparent
society. I'm ready as the prime minister of Israel to deliver peace. I
have - I give you an opportunity. I'm willing to do this and I can
deliver a peace. Because if I sign a peace -
MORGAN: Will you do what it takes -
NETANYAHU: If I sign a peace -
MORGAN: Will you do what it takes to make it happen?
NETANYAHU: If I sign a peace, people of Israel will follow me. But
you've got to give us the two elements of peace that are required to
have a real peace, not a fake peace. The real peace requires security
and the real peace requires that you actually reconcile yourself to a
Jewish state here, permanently. This is what we want.
Look, it's very easy to sign a fake peace and then have it collapse.
Most wars started from a conditional peace -
MORGAN: But it also (INAUDIBLE) very easy, cannot go after a proper deal
at all. I mean, there is an argument, why should you bother? Israel's
doing very well economically. You've been growing at five percent a year
for a while. There's a real boom going on. Meanwhile in the Palestinian
refugee camps the conditions are appalling. So you have a real "them and
us" situation.
There's no real urgency and you could easily hide if you wanted to. I'm
not saying you are doing this, but you could hide behind all the turmoil
in the Middle East and say, you know what, we don't need to do this
right now.
NETANYAHU: Not at all. First of all, Palestinian economy has been
growing at 10 percent.
MORGAN: But there's no equivalence between what's happening in Israel
and the state of the refugees in Gaza.
NETANYAHU: It's true.
MORGAN: They can't be. Come on.
NETANYAHU: No. Gaza is growing now at 17 percent because we lifted all
the restrictions -
MORGAN: Yes, but you wouldn't want your family living there, would you?
NETANYAHU: No, of course not. But certainly I think the people of Gaza
would like to be relieved of this Hamas tyranny and this medievalism.
But as far as the West Bank, I changed the policy. In fact, (INAUDIBLE)
what you say. I thought that it's important to add, in addition to
security and recognition, to have prosperity as a third pillar of peace.
So I've been - I removed hundreds of road blocks, check points and so on
and the result is that the Palestinian economy in the West Bank has
grown at 10 percent, which is - which for me is very hopeful because I
like to see apartment towers sprout out of the soil of the West Bank of
Ramallah and not missiles. And I think this is an important component of
peace. But the economic peace is not a substitute for political
negotiations.
And on day one of forming my government, I called on President Abbas,
Abu Mazen, to come here and talk. The second step that I took, it's a
tough decision, I froze construction in the settlement. I know this is
not the issue, I know construction in the settlements are not a real
issue, they're an artificial issue. The settlements cover only one or
two percent of the territory of the West Bank and a few hundred
apartments in this one percent is meaningless. But it's become an issue.
I said, all right. You know, if it makes it easier for you, I'll freeze
construction for 10 months. They didn't come. And when they finally
came, they bolted after two weeks.
I recognize the principle of two states for two people. I agreed to
another extension, three months. I did all these things. And what do I
find? That the Palestinians can walk away from the negotiations, make
pre-conditions, call public square in honor of terrorists and now
they're talking about a national unity with Hamas that calls for our
destruction. How can you be for peace with Israel and peace with Hamas
that calls for our destruction?
MORGAN: I'm going to -
NETANYAHU: It's one or the other. Not both.
MORGAN: Prime Minister, the Palestinians have said they are prepared to
bring Hamas into government. What is your position? Could you ever
imagine having any kind of workable administration that involved Hamas?
NETANYAHU: Can you imagine a peace deal with Al Qaeda? Of course not.
MORGAN: But there was, crucially, a peace deal in Northern Ireland that
involved Sinn Fein. And you had the bizarre situation of somebody like
Martin McGuiness, who had been a former IRA chief of staff, becoming
education minister. But sometimes to make things happen you have to
think the unthinkable, don't you?
NETANYAHU: You can make peace with an enemy, if the enemy abandons the
idea of destroying you. That is the critical test. Democracies fail to
understand what I just said. In the 1930s, with Hitler, they failed to
recognize that. He said, well, I'm willing to sign this, or that,
document. But in reality they could ascertain easily that he was dead
set on conquest and annihilation.
I think we face, in the Middle East, an ideology that is
absolutely-absolutely opposed to peace and coexistence, and that is
Hamas
(CROSS TALK)
MORGAN: You could never come-
NETANYAHU: Well, if Hamas has a constitution, if it tore it up, and it
if the constitution calls for the annihilation of Israel, not only that
but the expansion of radical Islam throughout the region and the world.
If they got rid of that, yes, I could contemplate that. If they stopped
firing rockets, or importing now, rockets to launch on our cities. We
just intercepted some Iranian rockets yesterday that were intended for
Hamas. If they stopped terrorism, if they stopped calling for our
eradication, yes, of course, we would be happy to talk with them. But
the fact is that Hamas has not stopped being Hamas. Hamas continues to
call for our liquidation. So what am I going to negotiate with them? The
method of our decapitation? The method of their exterminating us? Of
course not. Any country would take a stand against somebody that is
completely committed to its obliteration. And that was not the case in
Northern Ireland, because the IRA never wanted to exterminate Britain.
MORGAN: Can I ask you about the suggestion, in parts of the media, that
there is a growing tide of anti-Semitism in Europe. Do you believe that
there is? And if so, why?
NETANYAHU: I think there is-first of all, I think there is a structural
difference between the way that Europe views Israel, and America views
Israel. The European view is informed by the importance of colonialism
in Europe's past. So for Europeans we are, I don't know, we're like
Belgiums in the Congo, or the French in Algeria, or the British in
India. You know, strange interlopers in somebody else's land. But in
fact, we have been here for 4,000 years. This is our ancestral homeland.
My name, Benjamin, my name sake, Benjamin the Son of Jacob, roamed these
hills four millennia ago. There is a signet ring, in my office, found
next to where the Western Wall is now, from the time of the Jewish
kings, not that distant from King David. And there is a name written on
it in Hebrew. The name is Netanyahu. That is my last name. So we have
been around here. We're not foreigners. We're not the Belgiums in the
Congo. And the Americans understand that instinctively because for
America this is not a colonial past. This is the Promised Land. America
was the new promised land, we are the original Promised Land.
MORGAN: How solid are the Americans. The reason I say that is the former
U.S. State Department spokesman, P.J. Crowley, recently said, if and
when Israel offers its own thoughts on how to move the peace process
forward, we will be listening tentatively. Now that is diplomatic speak
for, you are not doing anything.
NETANYAHU: Oh, sure, I mean, look, I think people expect that. They'd
like, I think, honest and fair people understand that Israel wants
peace, that the Palestinians have rejected negotiations. And I hope they
change their mind.
But you ask me about anti-Semitism in Europe and I said, first of all,
there is a difference in the way that Europeans view Israel and
Americans view Israel. But there is also anti-Semitism in Europe. There
is the new boiling anti-Semitism of radical Islam that sweeps Europe, as
a whole. And there is a strange fusion-that is the only word I can use
to describe it-a fusion with the anti-Semitism of the radical far, far
left. And you know this is the strangest view you could possibly
contemplate. Because the radical Muslims, you know, they stone women,
they execute gays, they against any human rights. They are against
feminism, against what have you. And the far left that is supposed to be
for these things, they all unite on one thing, you know, bashing Israel
the Jewish state. And that is a terrible union and one that I think
should be excoriated. It should be condemned. Because the last thing
these people have in mind is peace-maybe a peace without Israel.
MORGAN: Do you believe you are losing the support of some of the
European leaders?
NETANYAHU: I think there is a great commonality of interest and values,
there are differences that have been there for a long time. I expect
Europe, on whose soil 6 million Jews were exterminated, to display some
understand, to put it mildly, for Israel's security concerns. And, you
know, often I'm advised on what is really good for Israel. Be a little
more humble. I mean, we have-we didn't do too well in Europe where only
a few courageous people lifted their-lifted themselves up and try to
save Jews, but in general, European society-
MORGAN: I hope-I can understand that, but there is also-and you are
aware of it-there is a growing frustration amongst European leaders
about their perception that there is inactivity here moving the process
forward. And you were reported to have had a pretty lively conversation
with Chancellor Merkel, in Germany, where you rang to berate her and she
ended up giving you her very forthright views on your lack of any
action.
NETANYAHU: That is actually an entirely false report on both the tenor
and the substance of this conversation. I appreciate Angela Merkel. I
think she generally wants-she is a friend of Israel. She wants to see
peace here. But we can have differences, you know why? Because we live
here and we are going to have to continue to live here and live with the
consequences of the decisions. If you make a bad peace, you know, some
of the most celebrated peace agreements, in history, were short-lived
and turned out to be calamitous, even catastrophic arrangements. I want
a peace that will hold. And I know that people berate us. You should
read some of the things they said about Begin. I think "TIME" magazine
says it rhymes with Fagin. You know, from Dickens? They said horrible
things. He doesn't want peace. He's extreme. What nonsense. And the same
kind of nonsense is leveled at me, at my government, and at my people.
There is no people that wants peace more than Israel. There is no people
who have been threatened with annihilation who understand what the
benefits of peace-
MORGAN: But what happens if your continued inability to move this
process forward means the international community decides that they are
going to go away from you. Go with the Palestinians, and set up a state
of Palestine, recognize it officially. Where does that leave you?
NETANYAHU: Well, in fact, that is what they are doing. They are actually
accelerating the movement away from peace. Because when the
international community says to Israel, you are the only one who has to
compromise, but they don't ask the Palestinians to compromise - to
actually recognize the Jewish state, to understand that we'll have to
have security arrangements, otherwise we could get Iran walking in
again, a third time, into territory that we vacated.
MORGAN: Are the Americans doing enough now?
NETANYAHU: If we have-if the international community says, hey, listen,
let's just line up with what the Palestinians say, why should the
Palestinians negotiate? Why should they compromise? Peace requires
mutual compromise.
MORGAN: But that can't be good for Israel if that happens. And that
could happen.
NETANYAHU: But in fact it is happening, because a lot of the
international community who think that they are advancing peace are
lining up unilaterally with the Palestinian demands. And in fact, what
they are doing is pushing peace further away, because rather than
compromise the Palestinians-
MORGAN: Well, no, hold on-
NETANYAHU: -say we don't have to do anything.
MORGAN: No, by looking at it they keep pushing Israel away. Isn't that
worrying for you? I mean, what they are doing is isolating you and
saying if you don't do a deal here, and you are in a position to do
this, well, OK, we are going to bypass you. And that puts you in an even
more isolated position, doesn't it?
NETANYAHU: You can't by pass, you can't bypass the parties to peace. You
can't impose peace from the outside. You can't have a fiat, or a dictum,
that says, "Thou shalt have peace." No, peace comes from the actual
negotiations that both sides do, and the compromises they give each
other. That is what happened with Begin and Sadat, with Israel and
Egypt. That is what happened with Rabin, and the King Hussein, the late
King Hussein, with Israel and Jordan. And that is what has to happen,
began happening when I negotiated some arrangements with the
Palestinians. They are the only two agreements that have held up in the
18 years since the Oslo peace process began. The two agreements that
have held up are the peace agreement I negotiated on Hebron, and the
peace agreement I negotiated at Wye. These are partial agreements.
I am prepared to negotiate a final agreement, but I need a partner. That
partner, right now, because of the international, reflexive attitude
against Israel, that puts the onus on Israel's side, Israel is proven
guilty, is judged guilty until proven guilty, and the Palestinians are
deemed innocent. They don't have to do anything. They can call public
squares in honor of terrorists. They can teach their children in
textbooks that Israel doesn't exist. They can have their state media,
state controlled media-Israeli media is not state-controlled I guarantee
you. They are vigorously independent.
They can do whatever they want.
That is not the case in the Palestinian media. They spout horrible
anti-peace, anti-Israel things. They are given a pass, the Palestinians
Authority. And I say stop giving them a pass. You want peace? You have
to get both sides to compromise. And above all, you have to get both
sides to sit down and negotiate.
For God's sake, Abu Mazen is 10 minutes away. I'll come to him. He can
come here. I can go anywhere.
PIERS MORGAN: When was -
NETANYAHU: By the way -. I'll go to Damascus. I'll go to Riyadh. I'll go
anywhere.
MORGAN: When was the last time you spoke to President Obama?
NETANYAHU: Oh, I speak to him regularly.
MORGAN: And is he as supportive now as he's always been?
NETANYAHU: I think there's no question, he's - he's expressed the
support for Israel, and especially for Israel security. And I have to
say that he's acted on it, in ways that are not commonly known. Because
if the United States has recently supported our anti-missile defense, we
cooperated with security in ways that people don't normally know. So,
there's been important cooperation -
MORGAN: Is he personally pushing you to make this happen? Is he saying,
we need to do this? What can I do, President Obama, to help you, Prime
Minister Netanyahu, make this deal happen?
NETANYAHU: He's said that quite a few times, and I told him what I think
is required, and we're engaging in this discussion. I have to tell you
where a lot of it is not public. I did appreciate the fact that the
president vetoed one-sided and unfair resolution at the UN Security
Council.
I think that part of the way that we see American support for Israel is
the willingness to stand up if necessary alone against unfair,
unbalanced resolutions. And that's important to put balance in the
reflection -
MORGAN: Are you coming under more pressure - are you coming under more
pressure from the president and America to get this done?
NETANYAHU: I suppose there's always this desire on the part of the
United States. It's expressed publicly and privately. But I think that
people in the United States recognize that Israel wants peace, needs
peace, but needs a peace that can be defended.
You know, peace is not a piece of paper. You can have a peace agreement
that is absolutely meaningless. It's not a power point presentation,
where you say oh, security, right, dot, put a V there. No, it means you
have to be on the ground. You actually have to prevent the infiltration
of terrorists into territory that abuts our cities.
You just flew into Israel the first time, right?
MORGAN: Um-hmm.
NETANYAHU: Ben Gurion Airport?
MORGAN: Um-hmm.
NETANYAHU: Nice, big, international airport. Well, a couple of miles
away from that airport is the West Bank. If that is not demilitarized,
then you'll have rockets that will bring down the aircraft that you
landed in. They could be rockets that are directed against all our
cities, our air fields, our communications centers. It could collapse
and paralyze our country.
So, my formula that I put forward in my speech at Bar-llan University,
for peace between us and the Palestinians, is demilitarized Palestinian
states, that recognizes the Jewish state. Demilitarized, because if it's
militarized, then we won't be able to defend the peace, and won't be
able to defend ourselves in case peace unravels.
Recognizing the Jewish state, because that's the corollary to our
willingness to recognize the Palestinian states. We already given that
recognition, and I hope the Palestinians reciprocate. That's something
that we can do. Now, it won't take care of the world. Just as the
Israeli/Palestinian problem is not the cause of the instability between
the west of India and up to Morocco. Then resolving it is not going to
resolve that either. But, it will give us a chance to disentangle our
two people.
You're still going to have people attacking this. They'll say that the
Arabs sold out, that I sold out.
MORGAN: But that's always going to be the case.
NETANYAHU: But it's important for us here. I don't think it stabilizes
the entire region. People often say, well if you do that, then everybody
will line up against Iran. I think it's actually the other way around. I
think that if we could neutralize Iran, defang it from its nuclear
capability, we'll have a lot greater chance and moving peace between
Israel and the Palestinians and Israel and the rest of the Arab world.
If Iran goes, we'll have a brilliant future goes with all the
difficulties. If it doesn't, we'll have to create a defensible and
secure peace but protect ourselves from the worst.
MORGAN: Prime Minister, who are your heroes?
NETANYAHU: Oh, people who mattered, changed the lives of mankind and the
lives of my people. First year, I suppose, Theodor Herzl - how old are
you?
MORGAN: I'm 45.
NETANYAHU: Forty-five. Well he was dead by then. He began at 36. He was
a journalist in Vienna, saw the Dreyfus trial, understood that the Jews
were going to be exterminated in Europe and began the movement that
resulted in the creation of the modern Jewish state. He worked all of
eight years. Like a prophet of old who came out of nowhere and changed
the history of our people. He was a pretty big hero.
I admire Winston Churchill because I think he saw the danger to western
civilization and acted in time to staunch the hemorrhage. I have other
heroes.
MORGAN: You lost your brother in this conflict in the Raid on Entebbe,
the famous occasion when so many sacrificed their lives. Would he be one
of your heroes? And he'll be looking down on this like so many who've
lost their lives in the name of Israel, I would imagine hoping that his
brother can bring resolution to this. Because in the end, peace is
always the better option, isn't it?
NETANYAHU: Sure is. But rolling back terror is not a a compliment to
peace, - it's a necessary condition for it. And my brother lost his life
in the battle against terror. Made a profound impact on me. I have to
tell you it changed my life and steered it into its present course.
MORGAN: In what way did it change you?
NETANYAHU: Well, first of all, it's a terrible blow because it's like,
you know, it's like taking an axe, cutting off your arm or tearing out a
piece of your heart. You live like an amputee. I mean, people don't see
that because your limbs are intact but, in fact, something is gone and
so every time that I have to make a decision to put our soldiers in
harm's way, and if they are lost, I go to the families, the bereaved
families and I think of these are my parents and my brother is me.
And so my brother once said that the test of a commander - of a great
commander is not merely to win the battle, but to win it with the
minimal loss of life. That's what he always did. That's what I try to
do. And his last battle at Entebbe at the rescue at Entebbe, in fact, he
was the only soldier who lost his life. First of all, economize with
lives. They're too precious. And second, seek to bring the world to
peace.
It's actually astounding and remarkable that Israel is getting this bad
press. It's amazing that people who have stood, you know, in the
ramparts of war and know the cost of war, that they're accused of not
wanting peace when they're - we've done concessions, we've done steps
for peace that no one has ever done. We've given up the Sinai. We've
given up all our oil. Can you imagine people doing that anywhere else in
the world? And we're prepared to do more. And yet it is Israel that is
being castigated.
I often have a somber thought about that. I think about that. You say
the entire world is thinking that. Piers, do you think what the entire
world was saying about the Jewish people for centuries?
I mean, educated and intelligent people believe the worst thing about
the Jews. There was a pestilence, the Jewish fault. Famine, the fault of
the Jews. Political instability, the fault of the Jews. And I thought
that was gone. And yet it comes back. After the Holocaust you thought it
was gone but it's come back and it's become fashionable now to say it's
not the fault of the Jews, it's the fault of the state that the Jews
built. That wasn't true then and it's not true now.
And I use this opportunity that the tell you. You say I look - I think
of my brother, I think of my sons, I think of our children, I think of
the Palestinian children. We could have a better world. We could have a
world of peace and considerable prosperity as it turns out. But it has
to be based on truth. It can't be based on distortion. And the worst
distortion is that we who pray for peace and are threatened with
eradication, that we don't want peace. We do. With God's help we'll find
it. With God's help, I'll find it.
MORGAN: Could you imagine the scenario in your lifetime where this deal
doesn't get done?
NETANYAHU: Well that's been the case for nearly a century. So supposedly
that's the - you know, that's the normal course of things.
But there has been a change in Israel. It's interesting. There's been -
I think two parallel things have happened. One, a political readiness on
the part of the public and I represent a mainstream party, a center
right party. It's got its fringes here and there but people know that if
I bring a peace, they'll be willing to follow it, including territorial
concessions. They'll buy it.
And yet at the same time that there's been a political softening of the
position of the mainstream Israeli public, there's been a hardening of
the security requirements. So the peace has to be a lot more robust in
terms of security. Why? Because we've seen that we walk out and Iran
comes in time and time again. We see the instability in the region, this
earthquake, all kind of corruption -
MORGAN: In the end - in the end -
NETANYAHU: So they want both. They're willing to make compromises but
they expect me not to compromise on our -
MORGAN: I completely understand the argument you put forward. What is
not so logical for you - and I'd like to end with this really - is just
that everyone watching this, this is the first time you've spoken this
year on television about any of this. And the Middle East is now this
extraordinary, evolving, moving, revolutionary story. Everything's
changed.
NETANYAHU: Changing.
MORGAN: Changing. And changed in some places already. Everyone's looking
at you. The whole world is looking at Prime Minister Netanyahu to do
something. They're looking to you to be the hero, not to be the villain.
And I can't believe, given your love of history, given your position in
Jewish history, that you don't want to be that guy that delivers what
the world wants you to deliver.
NETANYAHU: Well then if I end up meeting your expectations, you'll have
to invite me back to another interview, won't you?
MORGAN: I will do that with great pleasure.
NETANYAHU: I'll come with great pleasure.
MORGAN: Prime Minister, I look forward to it.
NETANYAHU: Good to see you.
MORGAN: Thank you very much.
NETANYAHU: Thank you.
ENDS