Palestine Papers: Bilateral Post-Annapolis Plenary Session
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Palestine Papers: Meeting Minutes: Bilateral Post-Annapolis Plenary Session
The two sides discuss what they call a "gap" in their positions on core issues, from security and settlements to borders, Jerusalem and refugees. Israeli official Tzipi Livni refuses to agree on the issue of "compensation for occupation," saying Israel will not pay for the damage done to the Palestinian economy as a result of her country's decades-long occupation. Livni also suggests that an Arab village in Israel, Wadi Ara, could be swapped during the negotiations and made part of a future Palestinian state. PA official Qurei says "absolutely not."
Full text
Minutes from Plenary Session
Post Annapolis
Monday, 21st June 2008, 3h00pm
Inbal Hotel, room 902, West Jerusalem
Attendees:
Palestinian
•
Ahmed Querei (AA)
• Dr. Saeb Erekat (SE)
•
Zeinah Salahi (ZS)
Israeli
• FM
Tzipi Livni (TL)
• Tal Becker (TB)
• Udi Dekel
(UD)
Meeting Summary (not verbatim):
TL:
• Did she say what she expects? On the
30th?
AA:
• She wants an agreement by the end
of the year. I tried to tell her assistants let’s look at
the alternatives. They said she doesn’t want to hear the
word “alternatives”.
TL:
• Your boss
either.
AA:
• Lets look at the gaps.
TL:
• We know the gaps.
AA:
•
No…
SE:
• It’s true – he doesn’t believe
my assessment.
AA:
• I want to hear from you.
I have a suggestion – let’s draft the entire agreement.
We can do it, then we can go through it…
• But let
me ask first – do you want an agreement? Is it an Israeli
priority?
TL:
• By definition an agreement is
an Israeli priority. We have [internal politics]. It is
our priority to continue to advance this. It is our priority
to prevent failure. There are some problems with facts on
the ground…
AA:
• You mean settlements,
roadblocks, etc.?
TL:
• No – this is yours –
I heard this from Gordon Brown. [Noting criticism Israel
received on settlement expansion, etc.]
TB:
•
He got the powerpoint.
TL:
• If it reflects
Israeli needs, not positions…
AA:
• If we
look at Israeli needs – they will never be satisfied.
TL:
• We feel the same about your positions. [TL
notes that it would be good to hear Palestinian
understanding of Israeli positions.]
• We stopped
confiscation of land in the last year. It’s the only thing
we have done, but…
SE:
• He has a point.
It’s not about just presenting Israeli positions and
Palestinian positions. He’ll let me do it [present
positions] – but this approach is much better – to sit and
draft together. There are there ways [to proceed]:
o
Exchange papers – lock in [positions] as we are
doing.
o The Matrix
o The integrated approach with
I’s and P’s.
• If we had not had to go to
Washington, we would have gotten much further. Look at the
examples of the Culture of Peace, state to state, etc.
• The best way to reach an agreement is the
integrated approach. The differences and the options will
be clear. You cannot waste an agreement because you will
see it [i.e. how close it could be].
TL:
• I
think that there is a gap in our positions and the way they
are perceived by you. This is why it is good for me to
hear. In Berlin we discussed the nature of the agreement.
Concrete enough on issues that are important to us. Issues
you need in more details, and issues we need in more
details. At the end of the day there will be issues that we
can’t bridge by just putting something on paper. Others can
be. The implementation will be in an annex later.
•
Question – when you are thinking about any agreement –
what are the things in a list that are crucial for you in an
agreement?
• For example – my understanding is that
on borders you need to know where the borders are. The
connection between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. And
where the swaps are.
• For us, on security we need
the answer to – army, list of arms, passages, airport and
seaport, electromagnetic spectrum, airspace [SE – the nine
issues…].
• Let’s say we reach an agreement on
limited arms or demilitarization. It is not enough because
we need to know [these other things].
• We need to
know that the agreement is the end of conflict. In other
words, what needs to be in an agreement for the end of
conflict? For example, water is for you, but not for us.
• Culture of peace is important, but I don’t think
it is a deal breaker.
• Economy – is what is there
enough?
• Prisoners, you need.
• Passages is
something that we didn’t start to work on. We need to
agree today a team to work on it.
• Settlements – do
we need a reference to the process after an agreement for
evacuation? This is something that can be done. That can
help…
AA:
• We need seven packages.
•
General provisions – they worked on it. We can add,
correct, etc.
• Borders and Territory – within that
we can set as sub-issues, settlements (once we define the
border what is in, is inside, what is out is outside.)
TL:
• I need to understand – in order to have a
treaty, I need to know the borders of a future Palestinian
state – as a Palestinian?
• You say you need to
address Jerusalem as well.
AA:
• But there
are many details on settlements. How much time you need for
an evacuation.
TL:
• I’m trying to
understand the structure and connect it to the essence.
AA:
• Timeline
TL:
• Ok on timeline
in terms of gradual withdrawal.
• Jerusalem?
AA:
• Within the territory and the borders.
TL:
• The holy basin…?
AA:
•
We’ll talk about the holy places – we can come to details
on how to cooperate. Yaani, there are two sides to
Jerusalem. Territory and the modalities, which includes the
holy places, etc. [lists some examples of types of
modalities].
TL:
• But are these needed in
the treaty?
AA:
• Yes!
TL:
•
I’m just trying to understand the basics for what needs to
be…
• You rejected a committee on the holy basin?
[Palestinian side indicates rejection.]
AA:
• Water – two sides. Shared resources must
be discussed. Western aquifer – part in each territory, the
Jordan River is shared. What’s in Palestine is Palestinian.
TL:
• What needs to be in the agreement?
Resolution of the issue of water.
AA:
•
Passages.
TL:
• What on the passages?
AA:
• What needs to be in the monitoring of the
passages, etc.
• Security – I think they talked. We
need the details.
TL:
• On security, you
don’t need anything. We need something.
AA:
• We need security for our people. We need a
third party.
TL:
• But you know the details
that we need?
AA:
• Yes…
TL:
•
Why the eagerness of the third party? Why is it so
important for you?
AA:
• It is important for
both. It will give us more satisfaction on security and
you. [i.e. to prevent an Israeli presence.]
TL:
• Your position on security is that you don’t
want Israeli uniforms on Palestinian territory, so it’s not
about the third party. [AA agrees.] But if we reach an
understanding that it [the third party] doesn’t help you,
we don’t need it?
• Let’s assume that we don’t
have any security needs, except no Palestinian army. Let’s
assume that the future Palestinian state is without
soldiers. Palestinian or Israeli. You need the 3rd
party?
SE:
• Yes.
TL:
•
Explain.
AA:
• We need, as a state, good
security to maintain the rule of law and fight terror. And
so we need a third party for at least part of the time.
TL:
• Why do you need them?
AA:
• On
borders, on passages…
TL:
• Why on
borders?
AA:
• We want to defend ourselves.
[Israeli side has side discussion.]
AA:
• The fourth is on refugees.
TL:
• I’m not sure I understand your position
better, but this is for Amos and Hazem to continue.
•
Hazem is away for two weeks.
AA:
• The work
will go on.
SE:
• We’ve explained many times
– the third party is not there to fight Israelis. We never
said that. Capacity building, monitoring implementation,
crossings –
TL:
• You want to monitor it? Or
you want them to?
AA:
• Both.
SE:
• You are not the only party on my border.
Egypt. Jordan. I don’t have what they have [in terms of
capacity/weapons].
TL:
• This is new – it
was not raised in the past? At Camp David?
SE:
• Yes, I raised it with Clinton. And we agreed
on US troops!
AA:
• In Stockholm, Camp David,
Taba…
TL:
• Amos is ok. He has a sense of
urgency to address these issues now.
TB:
•
There we two good meetings in the past two weeks.
TL:
• I’m still not clear on why you need it.
AA:
• We need [returning to the issue of
refugees]:
• Responsibility
• Second -- the
right of return,
• Third -- reparations for
individuals
• Fourth -- reparations for host
countries
• Fifth – the international fund.
•
And then the fund of absentee…
TL:
• This
is crucial for you for an agreement?
AA:
•
Because everything relating to Palestinian property should
be deposited in this fund.
TL:
• I would
like to ask you something. Reparations for host countries
is not something that you want. It is something that the
Jordanians want…
AA:
• We don’t want to
keep the money! But we are part of the host countries. Not
you – it is your responsibility.
• End of conflict,
and arbitration mechanism.
TL:
• Why do you
need it?
AA:
• We can include in two
paragraphs. The first – the two sides will try to solve.
If not, the second [will outline the arbitration
mechanism].
TB:
• Sounds like the agreement
with Jordan and Egypt.
AA:
• Generic issues
– economy. If we can’t agree we can say two states will
conclude an economic agreement.
TL:
•
Infrastructure?
AA:
• Should be solved inside
the borders… what is inside –
TL:
• This is
the furnished state that you want? So we need to address
it anyway.
AA:
• Prisoners.
• I
propose that the two gentlemen, with whomever they want with
them, try to draft the positions. I don’t know your
positions on anything! Maybe on Culture of Peace and
economy.
TL:
• Let’s see where we stand,
not about the positions. But on what needs to be addressed.
I agree that:
• Real and concrete borders are needed.
• A timeline with reference to settlements and
gradual process of evacuation – the way Israel leaves the
West Bank.
• On these now, we are talking about
borders. In terms of borders we need to know exactly where
exact borders are. You know where we start in terms of
positions. The gap – with respect to blocs of settlements
– is not a matter of percentages but about places.
AA:
• We don’t want to talk about blocs.
TL:
• I’m talking about my positions. We need
also to know – settlements. What will happen with them,
how will it be implemented, the timeline? To do it in a
gradual way.
• Of course the question of Jerusalem
– it is important for you as part of an agreement. But
there is a question that was raised not by us – if it can
be…
SE:
• No. We answered.
TL:
• Water is important for you, not us.
AA:
• Territory also not for you but for us.
TL:
• For us too! Your borders are out legitimate
borders. Jerusalem is important as a city…
AA:
• It is part of our borders.
TL:
• Not yet.
AA:
• Like the rest
[of the West Bank].
TL:
• Passages –
security, customs, etc. because otherwise there will be
friction for access and movement.
SE:
•
Passage arrangements.
TL:
• We need to
establish the committee. Who will be there?
UD:
• Kamil Abu Rukin.
SE:
• We will
get back to you.
TL:
• Maritime/port?
TB:
• Part of passages.
UD:
•
Airspace is part of security.
TL:
• We need
nothing to do with it, but we understand the need for
details on the international fund. Instead of responsibility
we can talk of suffering of both our people.
• By the
way on responsibility – whose responsibility is it for
keeping them in the camps? The Arab world! Responsibility
not just about the war, but what happened after. For
creating false hope.
• [We need to address also] the
Jewish refugees. Maybe as part of the international fund.
SE:
• With all due respect – you had an
agreement with Egypt. With Jordan. But we never caused
anything to the Jews. This will not be in an agreement.
AA:
• All the Arab countries are ready to
receive the Jews.
TL:
• We don’t want the
right of return. We want to stay!
• We need to give
them suffering plus giving them compensation. We need as
you said before that this is the end of conflict – but we
need to address some of the other issues. Economics,
Culture of Peace – I think it is important. The question is
how much details we need. On economy, I agree with you that
we can have a formula, and the details later. On
infrastructure we need it to know what will happen. On
Culture of Peace, it is done, so include it.
• On
Prisoners, we don’t need it, but you need it.
AA:
• We cannot conclude any agreement without it.
[Israeli side has a side discussion on legal issues.]
SE:
• Leave the technical issues to
experts. Some legal issues, you can’t live for a second [on
the day after] without.
TL:
• The most
important issues for the gaps – water and infrastructure.
We need to focus on that. [Side discussion on if
environment is close.]
TL:
• Do you want to
meet on water and infrastructure?
SE:
• Udi
and I will [meet on them once we get back from DC].
TB:
• We have started to draft the beginning of
state to state so we can drop the others in.
AA:
• We don’t want the whole agreement to be
about state to state.
SE:
• We agree on
this.
TB:
• But we agreed that if there are
principles that we want to mention…
TL:
•
Settlements?
SE:
• We exchanged papers.
TL:
• Go ahead.
UD:
• We’d like
to discuss settlements in the territory committee.
AA:
• One issue is compensation for
occupation.
TL:
• Since you don’t know my
position on anything, my position is NO.
AA:
•
Look at all the other Arab states and where Palestine is.
TL:
• With all the oil you have in the West
Bank…
AA:
• Jordan –
TL:
•
Look at where Israel would have been.
AA:
•
[Yes – in a much worse position if it hadn’t been for all
of the resources you took from the Palestinian state.]
TL:
• The answer is a dramatic NO. We don’t want
to put in [claims] for all the terrorism. The Israelis
killed.
AA:
• OK. Let’s put the
Palestinians killed, and the Israeli’s killed. [Implying
that by the comparison Israel would still be required to pay
significantly more compensation to Palestinians.]
TB:
• It’s not about success!
SE:
•
You will [pay compensation].
TL:
• I’m sure
we’ll do it, not under the headline of “compensation for
occupation”.
• It’s been raised in the past, but
it’s new for our discussion.
TB:
• It was
raised in the beginning.
AA:
• The mechanism
of implementation and timetable… “steps towards the
establishment…”
TL:
• Two issues related
to the borders. When you talk about the line of 1967, there
were some Palestinian villages separated by 1967. I visited
an Israeli Palestinian village on Friday – in Wadi Ara.
AA:
• What were you doing there?
Campaigning?
TL:
• There are 12,000
Palestinian members of Kadima.
UD:
• Israeli
Arabs.
[TL defends using “Palestinians”. She also notes that all they want are equal rights in Israel and “they deserve it”.]
• I said from the beginning that it can be part of the swaps.
AA:
• Absolutely not.
TL:
• We have
this problem with Raja in Lebanon. Terje Larsen put the
blue line to cut the village in two. [This needs to be
addressed.] We decided not to cut the village. It was a
mistake. The problem now – those living on Lebanese soil
are Israeli citizens.
UD:
• Barka, Barta il
Sharqiya, Barta il [Garbiya], Betil, Beit Safafa…
AA:
• This will be difficult. All Arabs in Israel
will be against us.
TB:
We will need to address
it some how. Divided. All Palestinian. All Israeli.
TL:
• We will need to address it one way or
another.
• The safe passage.
AA:
• Of
course – it is in borders and territory.
TL:
• When you talk about quality and quantity
[she notes the idea of investing in areas to be swapped to
Palestine in order to increase their value].
AA:
• 1km in a place with 1km in another place [in
the same area]. 1 km in Jerusalem is not [going to be
swapped] for 100km of desert land.
TL:
• It is
not possible.
AA:
• Yes it is. We know it
[the areas that can be swapped].
TL:
• You
showed up to 1.9%. The agreement will be more.
AA:
• I want you to really think about the blocs
of settlements. [Explains the impact of the settlement
blocs around Jerusalem.]
• Jerusalem is our petrol.
We expect 100,000’s of pilgrims to come from the East.
With the belt [of settlements], the pilgrims will not come.
TL/TB:
• You make the belt – we don’t make
it!
AA:
• We cannot accept this belt of
settlements under any circumstances. We need the belt to be
open.
TL:
• Maale Adumim will be there.
AA:
• Ok by power you can keep it.
TL:
• No, by agreement.
SE:
• Have
you thought seriously about Jews becoming Palestinian
citizens? Or is it just out of the question? Have you asked
your team for 50 year projections? Have they thought about
it?
TL:
• Truly? No.
SE:
• You
are not willing?
TB:
• In previous meetings
you though about the security aspects.
TL:
•
Yes, the lynchings [i.e. the risk that they will happen
post-agreement]. But do you really think that this is
possible?
SE:
• Yes. [Notes the long term
positive impact of such integration.] Think of all of the
anti-discrimination laws we will have. It doesn’t cost you
anything to think about it.
[TL and SE debate if the conflict is one of sectarian clashes or national movements.]
TL:
• Can you think about quality
in terms of places that are not exact places – around the
Gaza Strip?
AA:
• You want the agreement to
be accepted, it needs to be in the same place. Jerusalem for
Jerusalem. Jenin for Jenin. Tulkarem for Tulkarem.
SE:
• There are precedents. Saudi – Jordan. Iraq
– Jordan. Peru – Ecuador (for sovereignty versus
jurisdiction example).
TL:
• The structure we
can share together with the Americans in DC.
SE:
• It is agreed. Maybe we can agree to start
putting the skeleton of the agreement. We started…
AA:
• When will you freeze settlement activity?
This will kill us. You want to help Hamas on our account?
TL:
• There is an AM-OLM meeting. You can
raise it.
AA:
• They will freeze it?
TL:
• No but you can raise it. All these leaders
come speak in the Knesset and raise it. [Because they go
see you before they see us.] We can’t freeze in parts of
Jerusalem.
SE:
• What else can we discuss in
the US?
[SE and TB meetings noted that day and the next day.]
AA:
• The structure of an
agreement. Agreed/disagreed.
• Settlements – I will
raise it everywhere. And other issues of the first phase of
the Roadmap.
• The Roadmap.
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