On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Acting Prime Minister Winston Peters

Lisa Owen: It's 25 years since former National MP Winston Peters decided to start a new political party. Since then, New Zealand First has formed governments with both National and Labour, been dumped out of Parliament and fought its way back into a coalition again. Acting Prime Minister Winston Peters joins me now from Tauranga where the party has gathered for its annual general meeting. Good morning, Minister, happy 25th. Is it as good this time round as the first time you turned 25?

Winston Peters: Good morning, thank you very much. I can’t remember when I first turned 25.

Alright, well, let’s get to the business of the week. This week, a draft report into the Meka Whaitiri incident was leaked to the Herald. That report found, on the balance of probabilities, that Meka Whaitiri physically grabbed her Press Secretary and left bruises. I’m wondering would you keep one of your MPs if they had been involved in an incident like that?

Look, I haven’t seen the report and I can’t therefore give you the benefit of what I know about it. I just haven’t seen it. That report was leaked, that’s regrettable. When we’ve seen the final report in its totality I’ll be able to answer you.

Would you keep on an MP who carried out an alleged assault?

No, look, look, look, I’m not here to talk about it Meka Whaitiri. I’m here to talk about a party that survived a quarter of a century, the second-longest surviving party in its country’s history that hasn’t changed its name. That’s what I’m here to talk about.

And we are talking about your party; I’m asking you what you would do...

Doesn’t sound like it to me.

…if one of your MPs was involved in a situation like that?

No, we’re not talking about hypotheticals. Let’s cut to the chase here, what are we going to stand for in the next 25 years and why have we survived for 25 years?

Okay, we’ll get to that, Mr Peters. The other thing, because you are Acting Prime Minister at the moment, National alleged in parliament that you rang Deputy Commissioner Wally Haumaha to reassure him after an inquiry was launched into his appointment and the circumstances of that employment. You say your office checked your phone records and there was no call. So, I just want to be clear, does that include any and every phone that you could have used to make the call, and was there any other contact using any other means with Mr Haumaha?

I can’t believe you’re wasting my or your viewership’s time. Mr Bishop said he had a revelation, and if he’s had a revelation, then why hasn’t he shown you that? That’s what a revelation means. No, he made a vile allegation, couldn’t prove it, and now you’re asking me questions about it.

Yeah, well, you could clear it up. Yes or no, have they checked all your phones? Did you have contact with Wally Haumaha?

No, I’ll clear it up by go— No, Lisa, we’ll go to the original source who promised all you journalists a revelation. What was that revelation?

But you would know. Who would best know whether you’d spoken to Wally Haumaha? You. Do you not want to give us an answer?

No, no, that’s, that’s, that’s not the way our society, our democracy or our standard of law works. You just can’t make baseless allegations without putting up the facts; he hasn’t. And why aren’t you talking to him about that and not wasting my time?

Better to go to the source, Mr Peters. OK, so you won’t answer that. Let’s have a chat about policy. You have said—

No, it’s not that I haven’t answered it, I can’t answer it. I can’t answer it because it is baseless, not true, the records show it’s not true. The source was Mr Bishop. Please go to him, and I hope the next 25 years of journalism and politics is about that sort of thing, not silly side-track allegations.

All right, let’s move on to policy. You’ve said that the Employment Relations Amendment Bill is a work in progress, and the Prime Minister has told us that you supported the Bill through cabinet, and you’ve committed to passing it. But will it pass as it is laid out in Labour’s manifesto?

Look, the Minister in charge of it has told Parliament and you countless times that if he sees or hears of a great idea as it passes through Parliament, he’s going to grab it. Now, that’s the way Bills have been passed in Parliament now for a hundred or so years. There’s nothing new about this at all.

So, are you expecting it to be tweaked, and what things do you think need to be changed?

I expect it to be passed in the fullness of time, and we’re very confident about that.

In what form, is what I’m asking?

I know what you’re asking, and your colleagues have been asking this tedious question now for the last three weeks. You’ve had the same answers for the last three weeks. Now can we talk about a party called New Zealand First?

We’ll get to some questions about your party a bit later. This is an important piece of legislation. So, I’m wondering, have businesses raised concerns with you about it in the form that it’s in?

Well, if you look at the submissions made by all manner of groups in this country, including businesses, including unions, you will see that there’s a wide variety of input in the suggestions, as far as that goes. And we have had regard to them all.

So, from what kind of businesses are you hearing that there are issues with this legislation? You personally, have you been speaking to any particular businesses? And what kind of industries are they in?

There are 500,000 entrepreneurs and business people in this country, and we try and speak to as many as we possibly can.

On this piece of legislation, have you had any conversations with people, say, from meat and seafood industries talking to you about this legislation?

We’ve talked to all sorts of industries about this legislation, big businesses and small businesses. We’ve talked to unionists about it; we’ve talked to people who are tradesmen and who are self-employed contractors. We’ve talked to them all about it.

OK, so in terms of the unions, then, what conversations are you having with them or have had with them about where there might be room to move with this bill?

Look, we’ve told all parties, whether they be on the far left, on the far right or in the middle, that the Government in this matter is an umpire, a neutral referee. And, in the context of how New Zealand First sees it, our job is to write industrial relations law that lasts not just for three years or one decade, but lasts for a long, long time. And if you have balanced, fair legislation, that will be the result.

So at the moment, as it’s written, do you think it is balanced and fair?

Well, again, I said it was a work in progress. It has still to go before the full committee of the House. We’re still to hear all of the view of the people of this country. I don’t know why we’re trying to truncate and cut off a long process halfway through it just to satisfy these sorts of questions.

All right. Well, let’s move on to another policy that Labour is particularly committed to, which is Whanau Ora. Its pre-election promise was that it was going to put $20 million of extra funding into Whanau Ora over four years. How open are you to that extra money?

You know, it is seriously regrettable that at my party’s 25th year conference, that the line of questioning should be about every other political party but ours. But I’ll give you an answer. There’s a review of Whanau Ora going on now under the minister Peeni Henare. And when it’s complete, we’ll know what the review says. I’ll know, the Parliament will know, and better still, the media will know.

So if the review says that the extra money is warranted at that level, will you support it?

Look, we’re not going to deal… I’m not going to be answering questions about a hypothetical that was another party’s pre-election commitment and which is not part of the coalition agreement.

And that’s the point—

We’re an open-minded party— No, listen, we negotiate, we see reasonable argument , we’re here to take on new things, but I’m dealing with the here and now as we know it, with a review coming up, and when the review is complete, we’ll know a whole lot more. Whanau Ora was started, as you recall, with an anecdotal report without one empirical fact in it. Now, we know that’s the history, but we’re looking at whether or not… and is it possible that notwithstanding that, that it’s been successful. We’ve got an open mind about that. I’m happy and my party’s happy to await the end of the review and the final report.

Okay. Well, let’s turn to your party and its future. Could you see your way—?

Thank heavens for that! Now, how long did that take you?

Oh, well, you know, you’re Acting Prime Minister. You need to get through those duties first, Mr Peters.

No, no, stop right now, Lisa. Lisa, I don’t want to make this contentious. I’m a very reasonable guy, as you know.

Shall we move on to your party, then?

No, no, I just heard you have an interview with another party and it was all about their policies, and all of a sudden now it’s about every other party’s policies but mine.

They’re not in Government. You are. So we need to talk about both things. You’ve got many hats—

Precisely, Lisa. Thank you very much.

So, could you see your way clear to working with this configuration of Government for a second term?

What configuration is that?

With Labour and with the Greens.

Look, we look at all possibilities. Unlike all the other parties, we don’t go in with a pre-arrangement behind the voters’ backs. We wait till we see what the voters have delivered to us, and we have for 25 long years. And when the voters have spoken, because they are, after all, the very core and essence of democracy, then we respond, and we’ll do that next time, as we always have.

So, again, you’re going to go into the next election without declaring who you will work with? You’re not going to make a pre-election commitment?

Lisa, for 25 years, that has been our policy. It doesn’t mean that we go in hostile to other parties or the possibility that maybe after the election we’ll have to work with them. But in the end, we are a party in the middle; we are not on the far left or the far right. We are common sense party at the heart of this Government, and we’re not going to abandon our position.

Since you’ve been in Government, do you think that there has been a change in the support base for New Zealand First?

Yes, there has been.

In what way?

Well, we’re more popular now than we were on election night.

Who do you think those supporters are? Because I’ve looked at the breakdown of your voters from the 2014 election — 37% of the people who voted for New Zealand First party-voted Labour; 18% National. Now, in the 2017 election, it was 24% Labour and 22% National.

And your point is?

Well, what do you think that means about where your support is coming from?

(CHUCKLES) It means that our party is more popular today than it was on election night; that the kind of polls that you use —that usually have us down about 1% or 2% — they have us far higher than that now. Whenever I see your polls, I just double it, because that’s the result on election night, usually.

Well, those figures are from the Electoral Commission, and 22% of those people who supported you in the last election party-voted National. Are you sure that you can hold on to that support?

Excuse me, are you telling me the Electoral Commission is doing its own polling?

Not polling. This is a breakdown of the votes from the last election.

No, no. The Electoral Commission could not possibly know that. We live in a country with a democracy. We have a secret ballot. The Electoral Commission could not possibly know that, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

It’s the party votes that split, Mr Peters—

Can I explain to you as someone who’s got a political science degree and has been in politics a long, long time? The Electoral Commission will have to do a poll to do that. They could not possible discern any of that from the ballots itself.

All right. Let’s move on. 25 years — you must be thinking about the future of New Zealand First and, well, who’s going to lead it. Do you have a succession plan?

Well, what about you and your job and your succession plan?

I do have one. I’ll announce it at the end of the programme. But what about your succession?

(LAUGHS) That’ll be fantastic. I’m not—

You could do the same. We’re on the same show, Mr Peters.

I’m not sending people out to pasture. The difference is that my party’s in the here and now, clear and present, with a great future.

And? How long do you anticipate that you will lead the party? Do you have a succession plan?

Well, I didn’t really come on this programme in our 25th year of what’s been a glorious party record, where we’ve faced all the media criticism and more spurious comment than any other political party and have survived the whole lot, to start talking about a succession plan. That will be over to my party board, party membership, and above all, my caucus colleagues. It has never been, and will never be, over to me.

Is it something that you’re going to be talking about at your meeting this weekend?

No.

Why not?

Just because you think it’s a good idea — well, you might be going out to pasture, but I’m not, all right?

Good to talk to you, Mr Peters. That is Winston Peters, Acting Prime Minister—

It’s been a pleasure.

…leader of New Zealand First, and the Foreign Minister.

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