On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern

Lisa Owen: The Labour led Government is committed to reducing the prison population by 30 per cent in 15 years. But this week, its first step toward justice system reform turned into a bit of a stumble – with the Deputy Prime Minister Winston peters refusing to back a repeal of the three strikes law. I asked the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern if she’s still confident New Zealand First will support significant reforms.
Jacinda Ardern: Yes, and as we’ve reiterated again this week, we are a government who as a whole supports criminal justice reform, and for two important reasons. New Zealanders, I don’t think, generally support this idea of an American style system where we build mega prisons and have low level offenders going into them, not just because that’s not who we are, but because it doesn’t work. Ultimately, we want an effective justice system. That means spending much more time on rehabilitation, reintegration, and as Dr Ian Lambie, one of our science advisors, pointed out this week, much more effort put into younger people and earlier on, because that’s how you prevent that life of crime.
I just want to explore your confidence in New Zealand First supporting you in this, because Winston Peters in the past has supported cumulative sentencing, which means longer sentences, hard labour for some offenders, reducing benefits for parents of youth offenders and lowering the age of criminal responsibility. So how does that fit with your goal, and you’ve been really clear about a less punitive and more compassionate system.
We’ve been really clear about a system that works. Ultimately, we’re all united in the fact that we don’t want to see more victims, and the best way to prevent people becoming victims is to reduce the number of offenders we have in the first place. And actually, you don’t need to ask me. Ask the Deputy Prime Minister himself. He has spoken openly around the fact that some of these things that we have in our system, and the fact that when we came into office, on the current trajectory, we would be building a new prison every three to five years, and yet our criminal offending rate sits at about a pretty constant state. Something is going wrong. He himself has said we need to do things differently.
Do you accept that there’s going to have to be compromise on both sides?
I accept in any coalition government that, of course, you work through these things on the basis of consensus, but as we’ve talked about this week, things like three strikes is only one small part of a much wider agenda that we need to think about, and that includes what we’re doing as preventative work, early intervention and also what we’re doing around those alternatives, like for instance the use of home detention.
But do you think that the compromise will be so great to get you both on the same page that it’s not going to achieve what you need, it’s not going to be enough?
No, I don’t believe that, and I actually think that probably the biggest obstacle we have at the moment is making sure that we bring the New Zealand public with us. You know, this is a conversation we need to have together. In the past, you have seen reactions in the criminal justice area as being just that – reactive. We need to sit down together and say ‘what does it mean to create a safer New Zealand, a more effective criminal justice system?’ And sometimes for some offenders, lower level, that will mean looking at some of the alternatives that exist.
Well, it’s interesting that you raised that, because you have said in the past, ‘A government respects the will of the majority of the people.’ So are you going to try and bring them along with you? But if there is a public outcry about justice reforms, will you give up on those reforms?
Well, ultimately, that’s what this government actually reflects – the will of the majority of the people, and there are a diverse range of views in this government. That’s what’s one of its strengths is, that we have there the New Zealand Green Party, the New Zealand First Party and Labour, and I think probably views we bring to the table will reflect the views of New Zealanders, but actually you even hear from across the other side of the house – Bill English famously said, ‘Prisons are a moral and fiscal failure. They demonstrate when we’ve got things wrong.’ What we’ve been bold enough to say is, ‘What does right look like for New Zealand?’ because we are not the US, and yet our numbers look pretty close to the United States.
Okay, so that sounds like being elected is the mandate you need to make these changes in this term, and your—One of your science advisors, Ian Lambie, who you’ve mentioned, says that the reform you need is going to require strong and courageous leadership, so are these reforms potentially worth being a one-term government? Well, of course, we need to have that conversation with New Zealanders. This is not just something that’s happening behind closed doors, and Andrew Little’s been very open about the fact that he wants to hold this summit in August, bring people from around the table—from across the country because if they’re going to last – and I mean the reforms, not just government – if they’re going to last and won’t be a political football, we need to have some consensus. And we’ve always said we’re going to do government differently. We’re going to be open about the challenges we face. This is a key example, because criminal justice is a huge challenge.
And you understand, from what you’ve said, it’s terribly controversial. We’ve seen it this week. You’ve mentioned three strikes. There are ads, very personal ads, in the newspaper, so are you prepared to risk that this will be it, one term in government, if you push forward the reforms?
We need to bring people with us. That’s the whole point. If you end up being a one-term government as a consequence of changes you’ve made, you probably haven’t brought people on that journey, and the pitch that we’re making, the conversation we need to have, is to—with New Zealand, is when we have a static crime rate – one actually that we want to bring down – but when we have a static crime rate but an ever increasing prison population, is that the kind of country we want to be?
But that could involve bail law reform. It could involve parole law reform. It could involve— you know how controversial that is.
It could involve an improved youth justice system, more investment in education, better transition services, stopping young people becoming NEETS, ‘not in employment, education or training’, doing more around drug and alcohol issues and actually having rehabilitation that works. 60% of our prison population are reoffenders. It’s going to take a whole suite of measures, and we need to build support for that.
How are you going to bring them along with you?
Well, that’s—It’s part of a public conversation. We’re starting that now. Obviously, there are issues where, and as we’ve seen with three strikes, particular view on that one, again the government represents New Zealand in parliament. That’s one where obviously there’s a view from New Zealand first, and we’ve listened to that. But it is only one small part.
Okay, on a totally different subject, you are about to go off on maternity leave, so what do you think has been the hardest part of having such a high-profile pregnancy?
Still just morning sickness.
Really?
Yeah, I mean, look, I’ve had the same experience that so many women have had. I’ve just done it in a particularly public role, but actually the challenges I faced aren’t unique. They’re not new, and probably, I’d say, those early days, when we were establishing the coalition government, we just concluded negotiations, I was formally setting ahead the path for us as a government. That was probably the time I felt the worst, and I just had to get on with it, and I did.
Have you packed your hospital bag?
Yes. Sort of. Mostly. (LAUGHS)
(LAUGHS) That doesn’t sound very definitive.
Yes.
What’s in it?
Everything that anyone would think to take – toothbrush, pyjamas, not much more than that.
Nutritious snacks for your partner?
I’ve always heard that you can really overdo it with those bags. I’ve kept mine pretty simple, pretty basic.
So, sort of, maybe, yeah, kind of ready to go?
Yeah, pretty much. I think—I’ve been very careful not to buy into this sense of overdramatisation. Things happen pretty slowly. I think I will be—well, in some cases, I think I’ll be one of those.
Famous last words? Thanks for joining us. I appreciate your time.
Thank you.
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