On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Police Minister Stuart Nash

Lisa Owen: Kia ora. Good morning. I’m Lisa Owen. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Labour’s coalition deal with New Zealand First says it will strive towards adding 1800 new cops over the next three years. So how will it attract enough recruits and how can it afford to train and pay them? I’m joined now by Police minister Stuart Nash. Good morning, Minister.
Stuart Nash: Good morning, Lisa. How are you?
I’m very well, thank you. Eighteen hundred officers, so they’re all going to be sworn front line staff, are they?
No. So, what we’re looking at the moment is about 1100– It hasn’t been completely decided, but about 1100 front line community officers and about 700 organised crime squads, and of those, about 250 will be what we call authorised officers. So these are the men and women with very specific competencies around cyber crime, forensic accounting, front line policing, but not as we know it – the 21st century.
So those are of the organised crime pool?
Very much so, yes.
Okay. So how many new cops have you put on the beat so far?
Since we got into government, there’s been about 400 – 383, to be honest.
Over and above what would normally have graduated?
No, these are the ones that have graduated, okay? And there’s 600 coming in now. But keeping in mind, to get to 1800, we have to train about 1000 a year. There’s about 400 police that leave the service every year, so we’ve got to train 600 a year obviously to get the 1800 on top of that. So that’s a thousand a year. We’re on target to do a thousand since we became government in that 12-month period. So we’re getting there, but the reason we said ‘strive’ is that we do recognise the fact that a thousand is a lot, and we are not prepared to drop the quality of recruits into the New Zealand Police Services.
Okay, a couple of things there. Where are you getting that capacity from? Because the police say they usually have 320 to 350 graduates a year. So can they all go through the police college down in Wellington or what?
Well, they can, but we’ve actually got a new innovation for the first time in 30 years. There’s a group going through Auckland. That hasn’t happened since the 1970s.
It’s very small, though, isn’t it?
Yes, it’s small, but it’s a little bit of a trial to see if it can work. But what we have found is that there are some fantastic men and women that want to make a career out of the New Zealand Police Service. I have been to every graduation except one since I became the Minister of Police, and I can tell you the quality of recruits coming through is fantastic.
So are you going to expand the offsite training in order to meet those targets?
No, we believe we can do it all through the New Zealand Police College.
You mention quality of recruits there. Given that you are now needing so many people coming through, are you sure you’ve got the mix between quality and quantity right? Because I’m sure you would have seen an article in one of the recent Police Association magazines where some senior officers were complaining about the quality of new recruits.
And what I can tell you is the Commissioner of Police and myself have done a tour of all the districts. We’ve been to 11 of the 12, and we had some senior officers actually stand up and say to us, ‘We read this article; we refute it. The recruits that we’re getting are fantastic.’ So I refute that.
So you’re not going to lower or change any more of the recruitment requirements in order to keep your numbers up?
No, we want the numbers. And we recognise that it wouldn’t be good for the men and women who are applying for the service. It wouldn’t be good for our communities, nor the police itself. So we need to maintain that really high quality of men and women going into the service. That’s why we’ve said we’ll strive to do it. I believe, and the commissioner believes, we can do it in three years, but we are determined not to drop the quality of recruits.
How much is it going to cost you?
You know what? The budget comes out in about two weeks, and you’ll know about it then.
No, how much is it going to cost you? Because this is a commitment you made, and in your budget, as far as I can see, your obviously pre-election budget, you budgeted for a thousand cops. So ball park, what does 1800 new police officers cost you?
Look, I’m not going to tell you. But I will tell you one thing – the only time that Treasury has tried to quantify the cost of crime was in 2006. They wrote a report and said the cost of the community or the country is around about $9.1 billion, or 6.5 per cent of GDP. And the reason why Labour and NZ First came up with this 1800 police is because we’ve been around our communities, and we’d heard everyone say that policing is not of the quality it needs to be.
And I get that, but my question is about how much it’s going to cost you. We’re told its 140 grand, basically, to get a new officer on the beat with all the gear that they need. So 140,000 times 1800 cops is 252 million.
I’m not going to tell you.
Are we close?
It is going to be in the budget in two weeks’ time.
How much?
And if you really want, I’m happy to appear in two and a half, three weeks’ time and talk about it.
So the full whack is going to be in this budget this time around?
Wait until the budget comes out. But I can–
That’s not a number. I’m asking for an indication if you’re going to include the cost of all the police in this budget, all of those new police in this budget.
What I can tell you is that it was a major coalition promise that we would strive to put 1800 new police and support staff into our communities over three years.
Okay. Well, given that you’re going to have all these new police officers and you’ve said one of your emphasises is on community policing, are you going to reopen all of those stations that you campaigned on and said that you would? Are you going to reopen those?
Yes, we wanted to do that and more.
So how many have you reopened since you came in?
None yet, because this is six months out, and, you know, if I could conjure up 1800 new cops in six months, I would. But we’ve got to train them; we’ve got to get the money across the line. Keeping in mind that we haven’t had a Labour-NZ First budget yet – we’re about to have one. And in that budget, there’ll be a whole lot of information around how we’re going to deliver.
So where will the priority areas be? So which stations will be reopened first? What areas? Just give me geographic areas.
We have said that Northland is a priority area; obviously Auckland is a priority area because the population has grown and the police numbers haven’t; but really the whole of New Zealand. Now, let me give you an example. I do street corner meetings every Sunday I’m in the electorate, and issues come and go. But one constant is actually policing. People are concerned about police in their community. And they have a perception, real or not, that when they were growing up a generation ago, there were a whole lot of community cops everywhere. Now, we want to get back to that.
Okay, so give me a timeline. When will you reopen one of those stations? The first one?
When we begin to roll out these 1800–
Six months? A year?
I mean, the thing is, and I’m not being–
Just ball park.
Well, I’d like to say six months. But I’m not being glib when I say this. Actually, I have no power to direct the commissioner to do anything operationally. So, we obviously talk and we have conversations about where we’d like it to be–
So you made promises that you don’t have the power to keep?
No. What we’ve done is we’ve said we’re going to put 1100 more police into our community. We’re going to have 700 more police in organised crime squads. We’ve made it very clear that we want these police to go into our communities in a way that makes our communities feel safe. And the commissioner himself wants to move the trust and confidence of police up to 90%. It’s one of his-
Okay. So the thing is that a new police officer – you’ve talked about the need in Auckland. A new police officer makes, what, about $62,000 a year? You need 52% of your new recruits going to Auckland. It’s a very expensive city, so do they need to have a financial incentive to move to this part of the country?
Well, as you know, police are in negotiation with management at the moment. The unions, that’s their job, and they will determine that. It’s not my job to determine what the salary of police officers is. It’s my job to ensure that they have the resources to meet the promises they make to the community. And let me give you one stat that you may be interested in. In the last workplace survey, only 40% of officers said they were meeting the promises they were making to our communities. So they know what needs to be done. Over 80% said they were committed to the New Zealand Police Service and to the communities they serve. So what we have is a group of fantastic men and women who know what needs to be done to keep our communities safe but just don’t have the resources to do it. So we’re going to give them the resources to keep our communities safe and meet the promises that they know need to be made to our communities.
Okay. The Ministry of Justice says that for a thousand extra cops that you will get an extra 400 people behind bars. That seems to fly in the face of your government’s commitment to reducing the prison population, doesn’t it?
And I refute those figures.
Okay. Well, they’re ministry figures. So have you given the police any kind of directive around the use of these new police officers? Don’t look for a nail to hammer.
Not in any way, shape or form. But what we are doing – the police’s operational model is prevention first. And everyone, from the Prime Minister down, completely buys into this. So, you know, it may sound a little bit counterintuitive, but more police out there actually means less people in prison, because if you’re preventing crime– if you’re in your community, you know who’s mad, who’s bad, who needs to be dragged in front of a judge, but also who needs to be given some sort of alternative or dispute resolution process, then you can do that. When police are under resourced, then they’re fighting fires. This is when crime rages in our communities. And one of the things we’re going to go really hard on is gangs. We haven’t the resources to do that at the moment. With 700 extra men and women in these organised crime squads, we’re going to have the ability to go really hard against these guys.
Okay, well, so what does that mean? Because you have talked a big game about this. You’ve talked about – and these are your words – ‘smashing’ the gangs, so what exactly– what’s your one new idea for ‘smashing’ the gangs?
You know, the thing is, this is not one new– there’s not a silver bullet when it comes to hunting gangs–
No, I didn’t ask for your silver bullet; just your new idea.
No, I’m going to give you a whole suite of ideas, if I may.
Okay, tell me some of them.
So, first of all, under the Crimes Act, section 98a –to colloquially put it, that’s sort of a puppet master clause in the Crimes Act, which allows us to go after gang leaders who are sort of arm’s length away from the minnows on the ground doing the bad things. The judges are a little bit strict in this interpretation, so we want to strengthen that so it allows us to go after the gang leaders. We’ve got the Proceeds of Crime – we’ve so far confiscated over $550 million. So, you can deprive someone of their freedom, but we’re also taking their assets, and we’re also taking their cash–
That’s not new, though. The National government took assets from gangs as well. So, what have you got that’s new?
But the thing is, there aren’t the resources currently to do it.
Right.
Let me give you an example. In the Eastern District, which is my district, there were four officers full-time in the organised crime squad. Now, you can’t go after gangs in Gisborne, Hastings, Napier and south if you’ve only got four dedicated officers for organised crime. If you increase that to 40, then that completely changes the game.
So you’re committed to putting the extra officers who are working in organised crime into those specific areas that gangs are dominating?
Absolutely. This is about going–
So, Gisborne–
Gisborne, Warkworth, Invercargill–
Bay of Plenty.
Bay of Plenty, Tauranga. In fact, we’ve just– there’s a new organised crime squad that’s just started in Tauranga recently, and they had their first big win. They smashed a gang that was dealing in synthetics. And that has disrupted the synthetic movement into Auckland and the lower North Island.
All right, so, another thing you could do is that National’s bill was pulled from the ballot this week, which would allow police to issue firearms prohibition orders against gang members, which means they could search their cars and their houses without warrants. Are you going to support that?
Look, I need to have a look at the legislation. I am all for firearms prohibition orders, there’s no doubt about that. And, to be honest, I’m a little bit cynical about Paula Bennett’s bill. The reason I say that is because she was Police Minister for 11 months. They had nine years. Gangs have been a problem for nine years. We’re going to do something about this.
So you might write your own prohibition bill– firearms prohibition bill?
I’m all for firearms prohibition. And, also, keep in mind–
So are you going– If you’re all for it, then, are you going to push forward with a law change that allows you to– allows the police to issue those in relation to gangs?
Yes, we are. But we’re doing a whole suite of stuff. But this isn’t necessarily what Paula Bennett wants to do. I mean, when she mooted this in government, it was not the sort of bill that we found favourable.
Okay, so you’re going to do your own, but–
We’re doing that. I mean, this isn’t something that got pulled out of the hat and we said, ‘Oh, shivers, that’s a good idea. We haven’t thought of this.’ This is on the radar. We’re doing a whole lot of work around gangs and firearms.
All right. There is an Australian gang that’s getting a bit of a foothold here – the Comancheros. Now, these are Kiwis, actually, who have been deported back from Australia. How are you going to curb their influence?
Okay, see, these are bad men doing bad things. First and foremost, they’re now on the– well, as of the 1st of June, they’re now on the national gang register, which means they are not allowed to wear their patches in any government department. That’s a first step. The second step is we’ve got to go after their assets and their money, which is, again, Proceeds of Crime. Third step is we’ve got to have our men and women in our organised crime squads just going really hard against these guys. They are setting up here. They are liaising with other gangs. And the last thing we want is a gang like the Comancheros – and these are a transnational gang who’ve a history of violence and drug dealing – we don’t want them here–
So, you’re basically telling them you’re watching them, and you’re coming after their ill-gotten gains?
Absolutely.
And none of your patches. So, from the 1st of June, they can’t wear their patch.
They can’t wear their patch in any government department.
Okay, so, last year, meth, which is also associated with the gangs, made half of all drugs charges. And since 2008, convictions have gone up 170 per cent for meth. The war on drugs, the war on meth, is not working. So why don’t you decriminalise meth for personal use and treat it as a health issue?
We’re not going to decriminalise it, I’ll tell you that much. But what we are doing– And this is the police culture and philosophy has changed, so there was an operation called Operation Daydream in the lower Waikato, and it was an anti-meth operation. After they’d rounded up the dealers and the suppliers, they then went back to all the addicts they’d come into contact with, and instead of rounding them up, putting in a judge, throwing them in jail and then asking questions, they actually put them in touch with social services. Because, let’s face facts, if you’re a meth addict–
So not charging them and then diverting them to addiction programmes?
So, what you find with a lot of meth addicts, they’re actually good people who’ve found themselves in a really bad situation. So, you know, the vast majority, I don’t think should be criminalised. We don’t need to treat meth addicts as criminals. We should be treating this as a health issue, hence–
So are police following that model across the board, then?
More and more. More and more.
Do they need to do that more?
They do. And we’re encouraging this. The commissioner is encouraging this–
So you’ve made your thoughts clear to the commissioner?
I’ve made my thoughts very clear, but, to be honest, I didn’t need to make my thoughts clear, because the commissioner is right on board with this. It’s not being soft on crime; it’s dealing with the issues we find in front of ourselves. And the sort of interventions I’m talking about – I’ll be honest with you, Lisa – they’re expensive, okay? Because it’s got to be an all-government approach–
Well, do you have the money, then?
But it’s not as expensive as $100,000 a year to keep someone in jail.
Okay, so, 2016, MSD did some research on gangs. You’re aware of this. It showed 90 per cent of gang members in New Zealand have been collecting a benefit for an average of nine years. Now, you said last year in a press statement, ‘That has to stop.’ So how are you going to stop that?
So, you know, this is Al Capone and getting him for tax evasion. We need to look at ways that we can go after these gangs. And we will use whatever we can–
So you’re saying you’re going to investigate them for benefit fraud?
Why not? You know, if we can’t get them for the crimes we know they’re committing, let’s investigate them for benefit fraud. Let’s find a way to get these gangs. You know–
What specifically–Are you going to see if they’re getting income from somewhere else? I mean, specifics – what are you going to do around that?
Well, again, this comes to the Proceeds of Crime. And I’m not going to mention a name, but let me give you one example. There’s a Head Hunter – a leader of the Head Hunters – we’ve taken six houses off him, we’ve taken his Harley-Davidsons, his fast cars and a whole lot of cash. Now, he hasn’t been convicted of anything to do with his gang affiliations, but he is being investigated for benefit fraud. So he may well go down for benefit fraud, so–
So is that a priority for you, then?
My priority is to go after these gangs and do whatever we can, use whatever laws we can, to go after them. But one other–
They have 7000 kids, these gang members. That’s the other thing this piece of research told us. So if you are taking benefits off them, what about their kids?
And what we also find is kids in a gang household are 37 times more likely to be abused or neglected. So, one thing I do want to do is be clear on this, if someone wants to leave a gang–
But poverty is still a big driver of crime.
Of course it is, but if someone wants to leave a gang – and, in particular, a woman with children – we want to make it easy for her to do that. Because we do know that women can be trapped in these cycles of violence, and we need to get these women and children out of that.
So is taking their money away, their benefit away, going to make it easier for them?
No. But what we are going to do is take away the sexiness of being in a gang – taking away their assets, you know, and their bling and this sort of stuff. But what we want to do is send a message to gang women and their children – there is another way. We want to help them out of this. And at the moment what we’re seeing is just lock them up or send them to Women’s Refuge. We’ve got to have an all-government approach in how we deal with this issue.
All right, it’s nice to talk to you. Hopefully, we’ll get to have you come back and discuss some figures.
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