Q+A: Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones
Q+A: Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones interviewed by Corin Dann
‘There
will be no more sitting on the couch’ – Shane Jones on
his work-for-the-dole scheme.
Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones told TVNZ 1’s Q+A programme that he wants to announce four projects before Christmas aimed at getting young people off the benefit and into work.
‘I am going to take proposals to Cabinet. I’m calling it Work for the Dole. It may be the Work Readiness Kaupapa. But I am not going to remain silent any longer while my young ne’er-do-well nephews in Kaikohe and other places fall victims to the gangs and they’re in Disneyland. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not happening anymore.’
The Regional Economic Development Minister told Corin Dann he has had a number of discussions with Labour and said they are ‘behind the kaupapa, they’re behind the concept’ but also said, ‘I’ve been counselled by my friends in Labour. They don’t like the term Work for the Dole, and it’s probably going to be called Work Ready.’
They probably have a slightly different view of the incentives that should be used, but I’d be nothing other than honest if I didn’t say to you that’s the quality of my advocacy.’
CORIN What is it? Is it actually work
for the dole? Are they going to be working and getting an
unemployment benefit?
SHANE
Mm. I don’t want people on the unemployment
benefit. I don’t want to have to rely on Filipinos to
plant my pine trees. These people will be made to
go-
CORIN But
you’re implying they’re going to be forced to
work.
SHANE No,
no, please. They’ll be made to go to work, and where it is
necessary, to pay them. They’ll have to receive a minimum
wage, but there will be no more sitting on the couch.
Minister Jones told Q+A the $1B fund aimed at revitalising the regions could be used for some small irrigation projects.
‘And it’s got to be localised and fit for the local environment, and I’m going to push that vigorously.’
When asked about the Kermadec Sanctuary, Minister Jones said, ‘in the absence of a pragmatic solution that has us as NZ First agreeing to it, there will be no Kermadec Sanctuary.’
Please find the full transcript attached and you can watch the interview here.
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Q + A
Episode
39
SHANE
JONES
Interviewed by CORIN
DANN
CORIN Good morning to Shane
Jones, Regional Economic Development Minister. Kia ora.
Welcome to you. What makes you think, Shane Jones, that you,
in control of this billion-dollar-a-year fund, can pick
businesses’ developments that are going to be successful
and not the market? Why are you able to do this in some way
better than what we’ve got at the moment, which is a
market system doing
it?
SHANE Yeah,
you’ve correctly identified that this is a substantial
change from the last 30 years of orthodoxy. It flows from
the coalition agreement. I would say, though, people should
have confidence in the criteria, the policy, which will be
robust, and I will have an investment panel working with the
bureaucracy, advising me, and that will be very senior
commercial
people.
CORIN But
if it’s a good venture, surely - we’ve had a
market-based economy for a number of years now - the money
will flow to where there is going to be a profit. It works,
doesn’t
it?
SHANE Mm. The
reason that you intervene is where there is market failure
or businesses, because of the last 30 years of the growth of
capitalism in different ways in New Zealand, basically has
left these places neglected. It was the last government that
agreed to underwrite the development of the Opotiki Wharf,
and I felt that I should answer that challenge. No private
sector group alone is ever going to redevelop that harbour
and that wharf, and I see that as a classic public-good
rationale for putting dough into that blighted
region.
CORIN Do
the projects that you are going to do, do they have to make
money?
SHANE There’ll
be a host of different projects, and we’ll have to taihoa
until there’s a public statement about the policy. But
when we put money into roads, when we put money into other
public-good features, not all of the benefits are captured
by a monetary value. What we’re trying to do here is
enable regions and provinces to capture the full uplift of
productivity. It will not happen unless the state is
involved. That’s the purpose of this
fund.
CORIN So they
are a
subsidy?
SHANE No,
they won’t be subsidies, as such. We’re going to pay
three types of interventions. There’ll be cases, and
people have already been to see me about JVs. There’ll be
some that are grants, and there’ll be some that really is
an injection of the Crown putting in possible equity into
projects. But it’s designed to deal in the provinces where
there has been market
failure.
CORIN Give
me some examples of how it’s going to benefit a young Kiwi
in the regions who’s struggling to get a job, who’s in a
depressed area. Tell me how it’s going to
help.
SHANE I think
that’s a bloody good question, actually. If I take, for
example, the $10 million that would be needed to really
upgrade connectivity from where, say, the new Hawaiki
cable’s going to arrive up to Kaitaia. Unless you have
connectivity in the Kaitaias of the world, then the firms
that are there aren’t going to flourish, and then that
provides an incentive for employment to grow. But I will say
something that really bothers me immensely. Throughout New
Zealand, we’ve got this category of young men and women
called NIETs - not in employment or training. It’s a
category that data’s collected from the stats department.
Nigh on $60,000 was allocated by Steven Joyce, and for
reasons I’ve never fully worked out, not a cracker, a
brass razoo, was actually spent. Unless we build programmes
actually employing these young men, then the ne’er-do-well
nephs are going to disappear
consistently-
CORIN So
this is the Work for the Dole idea which you
raised.
SHANE I
love the idea, and by Christmas, I am going to have
announced at least four projects. I’ve been counselled by
my friends in Labour. They don’t like the term Work for
the Dole, and it’s probably going to be called Work
Ready.
CORIN What
is it? Is it actually work for the dole? Are they going to
be working and getting an unemployment
benefit?
SHANE Mm.
I don’t want people on the unemployment benefit. I don’t
want to have to rely on Filipinos to plant my pine trees.
These people will be made to
go-
CORIN But
you’re implying they’re going to be forced to
work.
SHANE No, no,
please. They’ll be made to go to work, and where it is
necessary, to pay them. They’ll have to receive a minimum
wage, but there will be no more sitting on the
couch.
CORIN How do
you force them to do
it?
SHANE Just wait
and see until my four announcements are
out.
CORIN No.
Without specifics, it’s a big issue to say you’re going
to force those NIETs to actually
work.
SHANE Well,
I’m not the Minister of Social Welfare, but read my lips -
I’m sick and tired of watching the ne’er-do-well nephs
sitting on the couch doing nothing, and I, as a Maori
politician and a Maori leader, I’m not going to tolerate
it any longer. I’m one voice in amongst 20 Cabinet
ministers, but read my lips - that is the advocacy I’m
going to
bring.
CORIN How
are you going to get it through
Cabinet?
SHANE Yes,
it’s obviously a mixture of charm and knowledge, but I’m
one of
20.
CORIN Have you
talked to your Labour colleagues about this and about how
you might be able to do
it?
SHANE I’ve
had a number of discussions, in fairness to my Labour
colleagues, and they’re behind the kaupapa, they’re
behind the concept. They probably have a slightly different
view of the incentives that should be used, but I’d be
nothing other than honest if I didn’t say to you that’s
the quality of my
advocacy.
CORIN Right,
so let’s just be clear here. You are going to push a Work
for the Dole scheme through Cabinet. You’re going to
try.
SHANE I am
going to take proposals to Cabinet. I’m calling it Work
for the Dole. It may be the Work Readiness Kaupapa. But I am
not going to remain silent any longer while my young
ne’er-do-well nephews in Kaikohe and other places fall
victims to the gangs and they’re in Disneyland. As far as
I’m concerned, that’s not happening any
more.
CORIN How
would you fund such a
programme?
SHANE I
would encourage the Finance Minister and my colleagues to
begin spending the $60 million that Mr Joyce put aside last
year, but not one
cracker-
CORIN So
it doesn’t come from your regional
fund?
SHANE Well,
the money’s sitting there at the moment. The regional
fund, as you know, is a substantial amount of dough. It’s
a $1 billion fund that flows from the coalition
agreement.
CORIN But
could you use some money from that for a Work for the Dole
programme.
SHANE Inevitably
we’ll have both a mixture of operational expenditure and
capital, and in my view- I mean, I don’t want to get too
hung up where the money comes from, but in my view, that’s
a bloody good use of such
funding.
CORIN I do
want to get hung up on where the money comes from, because
is the money for your fund going to be capital spending? In
other words, the government can borrow that money, it’s
for projects, it has an asset, you can get a return? Or is
it going to be used, as you say, for programmes that are
effectively part of social welfare? I mean, there’s no
return, necessarily, other than a long-term generational
return, granted that. But there’s no financial return on
that,
right?
SHANE The
fund flows from our commitment with our coalition partner,
Labour. Just give me a minute to explain it. The fund is not
fiscal hand-me-downs; the fund comprises of new spending.
Perhaps at the margin where forestry is concerned, we dip
into the money that the Small Forest Service already has,
which is hidden in the MPI. And why I say that it’s
important in relation to the regions, people in the regions
have trusted the party I belong to and indeed myself to
deliver for the regions. And the Bible says, ‘Some trust
in chariots; others in horses.’ I trust in my coalition
partner and the coalition document. We will have a fund, and
it will be dedicated to capital and operation
expenditure.
CORIN So
it’s going to have some new operational spending, so that
will have to go into the Budget. Do you think there is room
for that?
SHANE I
think we’re getting on the 14 of December an update from
Grant Robertson. The people of the regions should not
tolerate one sliver of doubt. There will be a fund. It will
be $1 billion, and there will be adequate funding for
capital purposes and operational
expenditure.
CORIN What
if this fund means that the government can’t get to 20 per
cent of debt GDP within the five years? Because that’s an
extra $3 billion. So if it’s borrowing a large chunk of
that, what if it was to blow out the government’s debt
target?
SHANE That’s
a reasonable question and probably the full answer for that
lies with Grant Robertson. But he’s got five years to
achieve that target. A lot of this funding, whilst it will
be capital, over time it’ll generate inordinate benefit
for our people in the provinces and the regions. And like I
said, our coalition partner and ourselves, we will not only
find the money, we’ll have a criteria that enables us to
robustly distribute
money.
CORIN So
you’ve got confidence that Grant Robertson could make all
this
work?
SHANE Yeah,
absolutely. I meet with him on a regular basis. I’m one of
the associate finance ministers, and he and his team are
acutely aware that NZ First are provincial champions, and
we’re not going to tolerate fiscal
hand-me-downs.
CORIN All
right. What can the fund invest in? And one particular area
that’s cropped up is irrigation. Can you invest this fund
in
irrigation?
SHANE This
is like a Manny Pacquiao interview. I expecting nothing less
from you. Yes, there is a process where the irrigation
company is going through a wind-down process. The government
has stated that existing contracts will be honoured. But in
areas such as Heretaunga and Hawke’s Bay - I flew over
there recently - you’re quite right in terms of what
you’re hinting at, Corin. We are not going to list
productivity in the face of changing rainfall patterns and
climate change on a lot of this marginal land unless
there’s water. Now, I’m an advocate and I’m going to
push for localised water storage, localised water
initiatives, or I’m beggared if I can see how I’m going
to lift the productivity of both the Maori owners and the
Maori
land.
CORIN So that
sounds like a yes. So are you saying that the projects that
you might fund from your regional fund are sort of somehow
different to the projects which your coalition agreement
says will not be funded, which are large-scale
infrastructure
projects?
SHANE Obviously,
Ruataniwha, the two monsters, that’s been decapitated, and
I ain’t breathing any life back into that taniwha. But the
uber-schemes and the massive schemes that are referred to
and enjoyed attention under the irrigation agency, I’m not
touching
it.
CORIN Irrigation
is okay if it’s the right
size.
SHANE And
it’s got to be localised and fit for the local
environment, and I’m going to push that vigorously.
CORIN What about
mining?
SHANE I’m
getting all the curly ones. I suppose I put myself up there
as a pro-industrialist, so I should expect
it.
CORIN You
have.
SHANE Yes,
yes, yes. The government’s position is very clear in
relation to the cessation of coal mines, but I do see scope
for, in a transitional sense, as we go through to this lofty
target in 2050, gas to continue to play a key role.
CORIN So you would
be happy for the regional fund to invest in the exploration
of
carbon?
SHANE No.
Unfortunately for those that are knocking on my door with
that-
CORIN Or
gas.
SHANE No.
That’s a matter for the private sector. But if you’re
asking me as a regional minister, and as we go through the
transition, that’s a punt they make a go through the
statutory process. I am not using the Provincial Capital
Fund for gas
finds.
CORIN The
reason I’m getting at this is you have talked about
yourself as someone who is pro-industry. Does it put you at
a very difficult position with the Green Party, which is
doing a Carbon Zero Act, which has got its own projects? How
are you going to work in government with the party that
would seem to have a very different view on development that
you?
SHANE I think
we’ll start with where there’s clear common ground. The
reason that my colleagues in the Green Party are
enthusiastic about forestry is it’s the best shot we’ve
got in the transition of lessening the burden on society. So
I think we should focus on where we agree. I’m not
involved in any of the changes that might be coming up to
the DOC Act etcetera, although the Prime Minister said that
DOC estate would be available for certain types of tree
planting from the billion tree strategy. But despite my
tendency for rhetoric from time to time, the reality is we
are a coalition government, and where we strike issues where
we have to wend our ways through the political labyrinth,
we’ll do
so.
CORIN Have you
talked to them about the Kermadec Sanctuary and whether or
not that can be progressed under this
government?
SHANE I
haven’t spoken to them formally, but I think it’s fair
to say our friends in the Green Party, they’re aware of
the NZ First position. I think it’s a challenge for iwi
themselves to come up with a pragmatic solution. But in the
absence of a pragmatic solution that has us as NZ First
agreeing to it, there will be no Kermadec Sanctuary.
CORIN Just
finally, you took a big swing at the iwi leaders this week,
saying you wouldn’t talk to them before Halley’s Comet
came back. I think that’s seven years or something. Why
are you going to war with the iwi leaders? I would have
thought you’d need to work with them. They are in control
of large resources. They are important for the development
in the regions. Why are you saying you won’t talk to
them?
SHANE I think
the iwi leaders, their stature has grown in commensurate
levels to the Crown attention directed towards them. I think
that the iwi leaders ought not to believe their only reason
for being is that if they can meet with Crown ministers. If
you genuinely want to advance the interests of your people,
then bring proposals forward, for example, to me, on
forestry. But all this bluster and belligerence about going
to the Supreme Court. Go to the Supreme Court - I don’t
care - but don’t for a moment think that that sort of
bluster’s going to blackmail me into agreeing because
they’re half-baked schemes to do with water. End of story.
CORIN We have to
leave it there. We’ve run out of time, Shane Jones.
That’s for another interview, I’m sure. Thank you very
much for your
time.
SHANE Kia
ora.
CORIN Cheers.
Transcript
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