On The Nation: Corrections Debate

Headlines:

Corrections Minister Louise Upston has refused to commit to compensation for victims who are raped while double bunking in prisons, but says she feels sorry for those victims and that they deserve the same rights as other victims of sexual assault.

Upston says she’s considering another 500 bed unit at Waikeria Prison, on top of the extra 1500 planned beds already announced.

Labour’s Corrections spokesman Kelvin Davis says Labour would look at loosening bail laws to deal with the growing prison population.

Lisa Owen: This week the government announced that some low-risk prisoners will be eligible for early release if they complete treatment or training. The announcement comes as New Zealand’s prison population reaches its highest ever level far ahead of projections. So why are we locking so many people up? Well, with me now are the Corrections spokespeople — for National, Louise Upston; and for Labour, Kelvin Davis. Good morning to you both. If I can start with you, Ms Upston. What is the purpose of prison?
Louise Upston: So, the purpose of prison, really, first and foremost is if somebody’s committed a crime, it’s about keeping our community safe, and National is the law and order party. We’re about making sure that our communities are safe. If somebody’s convicted of a serious crime, then we expect them to do the time for that.
Okay. Mr Davis, is it just about locking people up for punishment and keeping the community safe, or is it more than that, prison?
Kelvin Davis: No, we need to look at prison as a way to rehabilitate these people. In fact, many of these people actually haven’t been habilitated in their lives prior to their crime and prior to getting to prison. So in some cases, we actually have to teach these people how to be contributing members of society whenever their sentence ends.
So if you had to put a split on it, what is it? How much is rehab? How much is punishment?
Davis: Well, punishment is the denial of their liberty, so from the moment they walk through the gate, in my opinion, we need to start training them how to be good, contributing members of society once they’re released, whether that sentence is three months or whether it’s 15 years.
Okay. Ms Upston, National ditched its target to reduce recidivism by 25% by 2017.
Upston: No, we haven’t ditched it.
You ditched that particular target. You have. So you’ve still got this hard-core group of offenders who keep committing crimes. Why are you not making a significant dent in that?
Upston: So we still have a reoffending target, and the target is to reduce reoffending by 25%. And the importance of that—
By when, though?
Upston: 2021. In terms of Maori reoffending, we have a cross-justice target around reducing Maori reoffending in particular. And the importance of that, and I agree with Kelvin, at the end of the day, every day that someone is in the care of Corrections, we need to ensure that we take that opportunity to give them opportunities to give them a different life when they leave, because that is how we reduce crime. So our overall target is around reducing the number of serious crimes by 10,000, because that is what we’re trying to reduce. So when someone leaves prison, we absolutely want to make sure they’re not reoffending, and there is a hard-core group of recidivist reoffenders which we are absolutely focused on working on.
Yeah. So how are you going with that target? You’re only down about 4%, aren’t you?
Upston: Yeah. So, 4.4%. The important thing is that it’s 38,000 fewer victims of crime. And so, yes, we’ve absolutely got—
But it’s only 4.4%, and you were looking for a 25% reduction by now.
Upston: It’s better than zero. It’s better than zero, because it’s 38,000 fewer victims of crime.
But your goal was 25% by now, wasn’t it?
Upston: 38,000 fewer victims of crime, so we’ve absolutely got more work to do, which is why our policy announcement this week is absolutely around focusing on rehabilitation, another 48 million into that.
I want to talk a bit more about your policy a bit later, but is that a fail, the rate that you’re hitting?
Upston: Absolutely not.
Even though you were aiming for 25% by now?
Upston: 38,000 fewer victims of crime is a success, absolutely.
Davis: What strikes me about the government’s target, the low offenders, the people at low risk of offending, is if you’re at low risk of offending, why are we focusing on them? Why aren’t we focusing on those offenders who are at a higher risk of offending? Because if they’re at low risk of offending, chances are they’re not going to commit crime. So we actually need to focus on those people that are at a higher risk of offending and work on them so they become low-risk offenders.
Upston: We are working with them as well.
Davis: But that’s not what your policy that’s come out in the last week has got to say.
Upston: No, that’s an additional policy. So we are already spending 190 million on rehabilitation.
Davis: But you’re addressing low-risk offenders. You need to be addressing the high-risk offenders so that they become low-risk offenders.
Okay, well, your policy, Labour’s policy, is to cut the number of prisoners in jail by 30% over a period of 15 years. How specifically do you plan to do that while keeping people safe?
Davis: Yeah, well, we need a paradigm shift in the first instance. So what we’re doing in prisons isn’t working. The justice sector forecast for 2015 to 2025 said that the prison population is likely to increase to 10,090 by 2025. Well, that actually happened in less than one year after that report came out. So if that trajectory continues, by 2025, we’ll have something like 18,000 or 19,000 people in prison.
Yeah, but what are you going to do? I’ve asked you what your policy is to reduce those numbers.
Davis: The first thing I’m going to do as the Corrections minister is actually get all the other spokespeople from the other parties to come together and say let’s de-politicise Corrections.
Upston: We’ll you’ve never met with me, Kelvin. You’ve never met with me in my time in office.
Davis: Let me finish. Because you’re the minister, so you have the ability now to do that. Because what we’re talking about is this periphery stuff instead of looking at best practice around—
So you’re going to do some more talking? That’s what you’re going to do? You’re going to get everybody together and talk a bit more?
Davis: We need to look at the best practice around the world. If you look at Finland, which has got a general population twice that of New Zealand — 9 million — they’ve only got a prison population which is less than a third of what we’ve got. So we’ve actually got to see what jurisdictions around the world are doing in the first instance, but we’ve got to have a plan, we’ve got to have targets, and we’ve got to have a budget.
Upston: You’ve had nine years to do that.
Davis: But it’s not working, what you guys are doing.
Upston: I’m talking about your policy.
Davis: You’re the minister, and your plan isn’t working. Like I said, if we follow the trajections–
Upston: I disagree. I disagree.
But that means that you’ve got to come up with an alternative, doesn’t it? If you say that this side has got a plan that’s not working, what is your plan? I’ve not heard a specific detail in that.
Davis: Well, as I said, we’ll draw up the plan; we’ve got to have a budget and targets. If you look at Tom Hemopo’s claim to the tribunal, there was no targets, there was no budget, there was no framework around how they’re going to address Maori–
All right, well, let’s talk about the Waitangi Tribunal’s comments there that said we are not doing enough to keep Maori out of jail. So I want to know the one policy that you’ve got that is going to turn this around and stop Maori ending up in prison. What is that policy, do you think?
Upston: So, social investment. If you look at what we’re doing in the Justice Sector Fund in Nga Hau E Wha marae in Christchurch, there’s a specific piece of work that’s working with young people to prevent them from entering the justice system. That is one of dozens of initiatives that we have underway. We are absolutely trying new things. That’s what the Justice Sector Fund is all about. But in terms of the Waitangi Tribunal report, five of the six recommendations are already underway. So we recognise there’s a challenge. We recognise that there are too many Maori in prison, and we’re absolutely focused on ensuring that when they leave prison, they don’t come back.
OK, Mr Davis, your one policy?
Davis: Look, the big thing is is that we’ve actually got to stop people getting into prison in the first place, and this is where all the social issues before people even commit crime need to be addressed in the first place.
Upston: Which is social investment.
Davis: Yeah, but, again, it’s not working…
Upston: Well, it’s early days. It’s early days.
Davis …because we’ve got 10,000 people, and the trajectory is going to be something like 18,000 by 2025, so it’s all the social policies before people commit crime. It’s as soon as somebody puts their first– you know, breaks the law for the very first time, we need to actually intervene that early.
Upston: It’s actually before that.
Nobody is arguing about that. What I want to know is what your policy is – the single policy that Labour has that you think is going to reduce the number of Maori going to jail.
Davis: OK, one of the first things we need to do is address the culture within Corrections in the first place, because what we’re saying is we’re putting people in a concrete box for however long it may be, but we’re actually not changing the way–
But that’s dealing with them once they get there. You’re giving up if that’s where your policy starts.
Davis: But that’s what I’m saying about all the social stuff at the start to prevent people from getting– you know, education, health, housing, all those things. Then when they do commit crime– And the first crime that people commit, their very first step, is often a traffic offence. So we actually need to address things at that stage before they get to the more serious end.
All right. Are you convinced that everybody who is in jail now, that is the right place for them to serve their debt to society?
Upston: Yeah, because we have a graduated system in New Zealand of–
So everybody there, you think, that is the right place for them.
Upston: Absolutely. 71% are violent, sexual offences or serious drug offending charges, so absolutely.
Yeah, but 20% are dishonesty offences.
Upston: We have the right people in prison at the moment. As I said before, there’s–
No, no, I just want to raise this with you. 20% are dishonesty charges; 13% drug and anti-social behaviour; 5% other, including property damage. So all the people in jail at the moment, that’s where they should be?
Upston: Yup, because they’ve often had community sentences prior to that. New Zealand has a large number of offenders that are managed in the community, and so that is the step before prison. So it actually takes quite a lot to end up in prison. So, it’s not a single offence. It’s not a simple place to end up. So absolutely, I’m confident we have the right people in our prisons.
If you think they should all be there, why, then, have you announced a policy to let a bunch out early?
Upston: Yep, so, our policy around early release is about saying when they are there, we absolutely need to ensure each and every day that we are supporting them to get onto another track. So, for example, in the last year, Corrections has supported 2000 offenders into a job, and a job is an absolutely critical part of somebody leading a crime-free life, and that’s why that’s what we’re doing.
OK. Mr Davis, would you adopt the policy that National has announced this week?
Davis: Probably not.
Why?
Davis: Can I just tell you – the question to Louise was, ‘Everybody who’s in prison, should they be there?’ The answer is no.
Upston: Who are you going to let out?
Davis: There’s a number of people who are on remand in Mt Eden who have been there for, say, eight or nine months, from up north, and they–
These are people who can’t get bail, who are waiting.
Davis: They have said, ‘I’m just going to plead guilty because I’m sick and tired. I’m separated from my family; my family can’t come down and visit me. I’m just going to plead guilty. Hopefully I’ll get back up to Ngawha. And so there’ll be people on remand who are pleading guilty who may be innocent. And we have to look at that. Why is it that they’re languishing on remand for so long and getting to this stage where they plead guilty when they may be innocent?
Well, here’s a question for you. You would know that one of the reasons the prison population is rising is because of more stringent bail laws and tougher sentencing laws. So are you going to walk back those bail laws?
Davis: Well, we have to have a look at them, absolutely. That’s in the justice side of things. And Corrections is about what’s post-prison gate.
So you’re not ruling out loosening bail laws?
Davis: Well, we have to have a look at them. But there’s no doubt that the Sentencing Act in 2002, bail laws, they all contributed to the increased prison muster.
So, sentencing laws. No, no. This is really important. You’re going to review bail, you say. What about sentencing? Are you going to walk back some of those sentencing laws? So, you know, at the moment you have to serve a third of your–
Davis: No, I’m not committed to that, Lisa.
But bail, yes.
Davis: We have to have a– Well, I’m not committing that to a review. What I’m saying is that, look, let’s just have a look at what is contributing to the prison muster.
OK. Just a minute. Ms Upston, Labour is going to look at, review the bail laws and not rule out walking them back. What do you think of that?
Upston: Well, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them, and we don’t have any plans to change them. We think, in terms of the bail legislation and sentencing, it’s absolutely spot-on. What we want to focus on is actually ensuring when those who have served a prison sentence, that when they leave, they do not come back. And that’s why we’ve had an unrelenting focus on reoffending and actually providing education, drug and alcohol treatment, mental health support.
We’ve got to leave it there, but we’ll talk more after the break.
Welcome back to our corrections debate with National’s Louise Upston and Labour’s Kelvin Davis. Now, we were talking before we went to the break about the size of the prison population. The prison population at the moment is about 10,400, which is blowing out forecasts, obviously. Are you going to expand your prison building programme?
Upston: We already have plans in place both for some smaller new builds on existing prison sites as well as–
I’m talking about in addition to that.
Upston: No, not in addition to what we’ve already planned and committed to.
OK. Well, the prime minister was asked this yesterday, and he said that he’s getting advice on whether he needs the extra 500 more beds at Waikeria Prison. Are you aware of that?
Upston: Yes. So, we’re planning for 1500. There’s an option for another 500 on top of the 1500, but at this stage, we have committed to and funded the 1500.
But it’s not ruled out that you’re going to need the extra 500.
Upston: No. The end of the day, my job as the minister of corrections is to ensure that we have capacity in a safe and humane manner for the prisoners to be accommodated. So if we need to build more capacity, that’s absolutely what we’ll do.
So, are prisons still a moral and fiscal failure?
Upston: So, the prime minister said that in 2011, and, yes, I agree with him. That’s when we really kicked in all of our investment in reducing reoffending.
But you’ve been here nine years, and you are building more space in prison, and now you’ve just told me you’re looking at whether you need to build even more on top of that.
Upston: Yup, absolutely. And we are investing 230% more than the previous government ever did in rehabilitation and reintegration. So absolutely we are investing in the things that we know will make a difference to the prisoners when they leave.
But it’s not working fast enough, is it, if you have to keep building. If you have to keep building, it’s not working fast enough.
Upston: At the end of the day, Corrections’ job is to accommodate those that are sentenced to spend time in prison. So we need to do that and to ensure, actually, the facilities are up to scratch and the prisoners are housed adequately.
All right. I just want to check if Labour is going to carry on with this building programme. So 1800 extra spaces have already been committed to and potentially looking at 500 more. Are you going to carry on building at Waikeria?
Davis: Well, the trouble is that under this regime, the prison population is skyrocketing.
Upston: It went up 40% in your time.
Davis: Like I said, by 2025, they were anticipating it to be 10,090. Well, we past that a year or so ago. Current projections, we’re probably going to have 18,000 people in prison. That has to stop. That’s why we have to have a paradigm shift in the way Corrections is run. We have to look at reducing the prison population, not by just letting out criminals into society, but we actually have to look at what we’re doing and the way we’re doing things, and, like I say, let’s look at what those jurisdictions around the world are doing that are so successful.
Well, then, name me one specific policy that you would bring in that would mean you don’t have to build all this bricks and mortar.
Davis: Well, one of the things that I’d like to see, because the government’s introduced working prisons,…
Upston: Every prison’s a working prison.
Davis: …is actually extend that to educational prisons. And I quite like, actually, the policy from Act where prisons can reduce their–
Is that Labour policy, or is that just an idea you’re throwing around?
Davis: That’s going to be Labour policy – that we’ll look at educational prisons. You know, if we can–
Upston: They’re already getting education in prison. They’re already getting qualifications.
Davis: Yeah, but you’re talking about teaching people how to read. What I’m talking about is–
Upston: No, no, no. They’re doing apprenticeships; they’re doing industry training; they’re learning how to be builders, plumbers, electricians.
Davis: Well, it’s not working, Louise, because the prison population is going up.
Upston: It is, because they’re getting jobs when they come out. That’s the most important thing. In terms of securing future, we want to make sure we’re dealing with literacy, we’re dealing with drug and alcohol issues,…
Davis: We’ve got 10,400 people in prison.
Upston: …we’re dealing with giving them the skills where employers need them on the other side,…
Davis: We’ve got 10,400 people in prison.
Upston: …which is why we’ve got 2000 former offenders into jobs in primary industries, in beekeeping, in building and construction, in hospitality. If you look at Gate to Plate, there is extraordinary training going on inside our prisons – technical qualifications that support them getting a job.
Davis: And we’ve got 10,400 people in prison. You have surpassed your 10-year target in one year.
Upston: You went up 40% in your time. We’re going up 30%. I accept it’s a challenge, but it’s a challenge that we are absolutely confronting. When they leave, we don’t want them to come back.
Davis: Your 10-year target, you surpassed it in one year, Louise. It’s not working.
Upston: Yeah, the forecast absolutely moves around. The reality is we’ve got to make sure when people come into prison, we deal with the issues that they have, whether it’s in education, whether it’s a mental health issue, whether it’s about getting qualifications to get them ready for a job, because we don’t want them coming back. We don’t want them coming back.
Davis: You took one year to surpass your 10-year forecast.
All right, I’m going to jump in here. So, you are funding rehabilitation programmes, but, in your own words there, 30% increase in the muster. So can you really say that you’re doing enough and it’s actually working?
Upston: Yup, absolutely.
Mr Davis is right – record numbers.
Upston: Yeah. So, we have the numbers, and, absolutely, that’s what we’re given. And then what we do is then invest more. We have to change lives person by person. That is the only way we’re going to actually have an impact and make sure that those offenders don’t come back; they go home to their families. We want to make sure that they have a different life when they go home to their families and communities.
All right. So, if I could come to you, Ms Upston, part of National’s policy is double-bunking to increase capacity. Now, just this year alone, we’ve seen a number of convictions for the rape and sexual assault of prisoners who were double-bunked. What responsibility do you take for that?
Upston: So, firstly, it’s appalling those incidents have happened in our prisons. And there is a zero tolerance in prisons for doing that. Corrections are now reflecting on the assessment tool that they use for who’s suitable for double-bunking. For some prisoners, actually, for those that have some mental health challenges, it actually reduces their risk of self-harm, for example, so for some inmates, it’s actually a really important mechanism for their time in prison being more manageable.
OK. But for the victims, those victims of rape and sexual assault, should they get compensation?
Upston: That’s a matter for those victims and Corrections, but as I say, it’s appalling that that’s occurred.
What’s your personal view on that? Do they deserve to be compensated for what they’ve suffered?
Upston: They deserve the same rights as other victims who have been victims of sexual assault.
OK. Well, apology will cost you nothing. Do you want to apologise to them now?
Upston: Well, I don’t believe it should ever have happened, and I really feel for those victims. It should never have occurred in the first place. And that’s why I’ve asked Corrections to look at their risk assessment tool–
So, do you apologise to them?
Upston: Yeah. I feel very sorry for those victims, absolutely.
OK. Mr Davis, the Australians, in your view, are abusing the human rights – or ignoring the human rights – of New Zealanders by detaining them indefinitely in detention centres with a view to deporting them here to New Zealand. So if you get into government, what exactly are you going to do about it?
Davis: Yeah, in particular, it’s the double jeopardy side of things, where they’ve been imprisoned for whatever crime they’ve committed, and then it may be only 12 months, but they may be three or four years in a detention centre. Well, there has to be high-level engagement around this because human rights are universal; they don’t discriminate, and we need to be able to have those hard conversations. Even though the Australians are our allies, we need to be able to say to them, “Hey, look, what you’re doing actually isn’t right.”
OK. We’re almost out of time, so I want a straight answer on this. Your leader’s going to go to the mat over education. If she becomes prime minister, and if the Aussies make New Zealanders pay for education, she says she’s going to retaliate. So are you going to retaliate over this or not?
Davis: Like I say, there needs to be high-level conversation. What I’d like to see is that the rights that Australians enjoy in New Zealand are rights that New Zealanders enjoy in Australia.
OK, we’ve got to leave it there. Thank you both for joining me this morning.
Upston: Thank you.
Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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