Q+A: Jacinda Ardern and Kelvin Davis
Q+A: Jacinda Ardern and Kelvin Davis interviewed by
Jessica Mutch
to
Labour to
make Aucklanders pay for congestion solutions if
elected
Labour leader
Jacinda Ardern says she will make Aucklanders contribute to
her party’s plans to boost transport options in our
biggest city.
Speaking on TVNZ 1’s Q+A programme this
morning, Ms Ardern told Jessica Mutch the party had come up
with some immediate steps to help fix Auckland’s
congestion problems, including a regional fuel
tax.
“This is a message to the rest of New Zealand as
well. Aucklanders know that we have to
contribute to the problem that we have whilst building a
partnership with central government and council to fix these
problems,” she said.
“One of the things that we want to do, for instance, is create a rapid bus transit link from Puhinui Station and Manukau Station that will then take passengers directly to the airport.
“We are serious about changing the way we move around our city.”
Ms Ardern reiterated Labour’s plan to abolish charter schools if elected.
Deputy leader Kelvin Davis, also speaking on Q+A, ruled out a deal with Te Tai Tokerau opponent Hone Harawira and he would continue his plan to contest his Te Tai Tokerau seat even though Mr Davis was this week promoted to number two on Labour’s list.
“Let me be clear. No deals. No deals with Hone,” he said.
“I have never
taken the seat for granted. Every day I walk through those
halls at Parliament, I just think, ‘You know, I’m here
to do a job.’”
Q +
A
Episode
22
JACINDA ARDERN AND
KELVIN DAVIS
Interviewed by Jessica
Mutch
JESSICA Welcome to
Labour’s new deputy leader, Kelvin Davis. Thank you
for being with us.
KELVIN Kia
ora. Good
morning.
JESSICA Before
the break, we were just talking about working with Winston
Peters. A lot has been put on your relationship with him and
Shane Jones. What’s that relationship
like?
KELVIN The
relationship with Winston and Shane
Jones–
JESSICA And
you.
KELVIN Look,
as we know, I’m a relation of theirs. You know, we’re
all from up North, but they’re New Zealand First. We’re
focused on Labour. And let me tell you this, Jess –
everything’s changed. The vibe’s changed; the
momentum’s changed; the energy’s changed; the
election’s changed you know. We’ve got Jacinda here, and
we all know about the Jacinda effect, and then we look
over–
JESSICA What
is the Jacinda effect? Tell me about
it.
KELVIN Well, I
will. Look, the Jacinda effect – pure optimism. When we
look over the other side of the
house–
JESSICA How
long will that last for,
though?
JACINDA How long will I be
optimistic?
JESSICA No,
how long will the effect last
for?
KELVIN Let me
tell you this. We look over at the other side there, and we
see a prime minister with a personality of a rock. We’ve
got the Jacinda
effect.
JESSICA That’s
a bit
harsh.
KELVIN And
then we’ve got Paula Bennett, who’s mastered the Lyn of
Tawa effect. We’ve got Jonathan Coleman, the doctor of
death. We’ve got Steven Joyce, who’s as authentic as a
$4 Rolex. We’ve got Gerry Brownlee, who’s got the energy
of a small hill. We’ve got Simon Bridges, the only person
under 80 who still buys Brylcreem. And Judith Collins. Look,
her stare caused that ice shelf in Antarctica to crack off
and float
away.
JESSICA On
behalf of the National Party, I think that’s a little bit
unfair. But tell me about this Jacinda
effect–
JACINDA And we’ve got Kelvin
Davis the free speaker. That is very, very
clear.
JESSICA Tell
me about the Jacinda effect, and how long will that
last?
KELVIN It’s
going to last– How long are you going to be prime
minister, Jacinda? When do you want to retire? Look, Jacinda
is– look, the thing I love about Jacinda is what you see
on TV is what you get. You know, there’s
no airs and graces. You look at the National Party. Look,
they’re as dry as dandruff and half as appealing. You
know, there’s more life in an urupa. You know, they’re
as genuine as a $3– $3
note.
JESSICA Is
that why you’re not on the billboard – because of the
Jacinda effect? Cos she was.
JACINDA He
didn’t want to be
graffitied.
JESSICA So
why aren’t you on– Look, but seriously? Why aren’t
you? Why aren’t you on the billboard? Cos aren’t you a
good look for
Labour?
KELVIN Winston
hasn’t got Ron Mark holding his
hand–
JESSICA But
Jacinda was on the billboard when she was deputy, and
you’re
not.
KELVIN That
was then. This is now. This is the new Labour campaign. So,
you know, I’m just happy for Jacinda to be on the
billboard.
JESSICA But
why didn’t you want to be
there?
KELVIN Paula
Bennett isn’t on the– Paula Bennett isn’t on Bill
English’s billboard. You know, Jacinda is the future, and
we need to have Jacinda up
there.
JESSICA Let’s
talk about your seat, Te Tai Tokerau, going on to the list.
Because of the Labour constitution, you have to be at number
two–
KELVIN Let
me be clear. No deals. No deals with
Hone.
JESSICA But
I’m just going to explain it for people that don’t know.
Going on the seat means that you can’t campaign like you
were in Te Tai Tokerau, saying’ that you have to vote for
me in my electorate seat if you want me to be in
parliament’. Hone’s saying, ‘Two for the price of one
now.’ What do you say to
that?
KELVIN Te Tai
Tokerau need quantity, not quality. Look, he was a waste of
space. I’ll put my record in the last three years up
against anything he did in the previous nine years. Nothing
was achieved, and, you know, he was actually disrespectful
to the seat of Tai Tokerau by trying to sell it off to Kim
Dotcom for $3.5 million. He took the seat for granted. I
have never taken the seat for granted. Every day I walk
through those halls at Parliament, I just think, ‘You
know, I’m here to do a job.’ Let me tell you about
Victor, who I met yesterday as I left the Northland rugby
league final. He was walking out, and I said, ‘Hey,
gidday. I’m Kelvin.’ He goes, ‘Yeah, I know who you
are.’ He was carrying his baby– his toddler in his arms.
And he was a bit pissy-eyed, and he said, ‘Kelvin,
I’m–‘ And he got a bit emotional. He goes, ‘I’m 32
years old. I’m a fully qualified builder. My baby here’s
got a milk allergy, so his mother can’t work. I’ve saved
$19,000, but I’m struggling.’ Now, right then and there,
he didn’t want a politician; he wanted to know that I gave
a damn. He wanted dignity, and he wanted hope. And as I was
driving back down to Auckland, I was thinking to myself,
‘You know, this is why I’m in politics. What am I going
to do for Victor?’ And I thought, ‘Actually, you know,
this is what I’m going to do– this is what we’re going
to do. We’re going to invest in health so that his
baby’s allergy gets looked
after–‘
JESSICA But
you need to– before you can do all of that for those
people, you need to
be–
KELVIN I’m
coming to
that.
JESSICA …in
Parliament. So let’s talk more about your relationship
with Winston Peters. Do you think that you guys will be able
to negotiate and have a working, functioning relationship
with New Zealand First?
JACINDA Why
wouldn’t we? Why wouldn’t we be able
to?
JESSICA Because
they’re tough to work with.
JACINDA But
it’s been done before, and it’s been done by Labour
before. But what we’ve been continually saying in this
last week is, it does a real disservice to voters for us to
continually have conversations about the make-up of
parties–
JESSICA They
need to know if you can work with
them.
JACINDA And
the answer is yes. And now the rest will be focussed on
Labour.
JESSICA Maori seats – can
Labour win all seven?
KELVIN You better believe
it. Tamati Coffey is– I’d say he might even be ahead of
Te Ururoa Flavell. A few weeks ago, he was one point behind,
according to some polls. The Maori Party are really worried,
and they’re struggling. I drove from Wellington to
Whanganui the other day. I saw about 20 Adrian Rurawhe
billboards, and I saw one billboard of the Maori Party with
their candidate – whatever his name is– Look, Tamati
Coffey in Waiariki is– He is– has got momentum; he’s
got– You know, this is what I say – what’s happened in
the last week is a game changer. Tamati had, I think, half a
dozen volunteers sign up the day after Jacinda was announced
leader. There’s real momentum. We are just so excited. All
we’ve got to do is win an
election.
JESSICA As
simple as that. Easy,
eh?
KELVIN Then we
can help Victor, and then we can give him the– I was
thinking, ‘Let’s do this. Let’s do this for
Victor.’
JESSICA We’ve
heard that phrase. Very interesting to be tested out this
week, but thank you both very much for being here this
morning. Really appreciate your
time.
JACINDA Thank
you. Thanks so much.
Q +
A
Episode
22
JACINDA
ARDERN
Interviewed by JESSICA
MUTCH
JESSICA And
good morning to the Labour leader, Jacinda Ardern.
JACINDA Good
morning.
JESSICA I
want to ask you, how is the Labour of last week different
from the Labour Party
today?
JACINDA
Obviously there is the difference in leadership.
And we have to acknowledge that increasingly over the years,
there has been a focus on leadership in these campaigns. And
I will be bringing my own stamp, my own way of doing things,
and that does represent a generational change. I do politics
a little bit differently. But also we have taken some time
over the last week to look at the areas we will be
campaigning. Now, when Labour first said ‘We’re going to
put some focus on housing, health, education,’ that
didn’t come out of nowhere. That came from voters. That
came from the public telling us those issues mattered. So
what Kelvin and I have been doing over the last week – and
with the wider team – is looking for areas we will put a
bit more emphasis during the campaign. And I’ve already
highlighted those areas will be housing, they’ll be the
environment, they’ll be key infrastructure, which we’ll
be talking about today, and some specific ones for Maori
issues.
JESSICA
Let’s touch on that, then. You are set to make a
big infrastructure announcement. Are you going to get
Aucklanders to pay for that and are we talking
rail?
JACINDA
And I am excited by the announcement today,
because this will represent a move for Auckland coming into
the 21st century in the way that we move around our city.
And it will present a generational change and a big
difference between us and the government. But you have asked
about funding it. Yes, we will be asking Aucklanders to
contribute. Now, as an Aucklander myself I think Aucklanders
will be happy to put up an amount to contribute to the big
plans that we
have.
JESSICA How
much?
JACINDA
So we are talking about things like a regional
fuel tax. That is not something we will set. We will give
Council the ability to do it themselves. It is something
that they have been asking for tools. And this is a message
to the rest of New Zealand as well.
Aucklanders know that we have to contribute to the
problem that we have whilst building a partnership with
central government and council to fix these
problems.
JESSICA
Out to the airport? Is that what we’re talking
about?
JACINDA
You have to wait till and see til 1 o'clock. But I
will give you a flavour. One of the things that we want to
do, for instance, is create a rapid bus transit link from
Puhinui Station and Manukau Station that will then take
passengers directly to the airport. Now, the reason that we
want to do that is that’s a quick win for us. That is a
down payment on some of our bigger plans that we have. And
it connects to some existing infrastructure that we’ve
already got there. We think we can deliver that pretty much
straight away. But with the rapid transit arm taking a
couple of years. But I think Aucklanders will see
indications from ideas like that that show we are serious
about changing the way we move around our
city.
JESSICA
I want to know what drives you and what motivates
you? What is your fall back when you are thinking about
where you stand on a
policy?
JACINDA
Yeah, I mean what drives any politician probably
comes from their back story about how they came to be in
politics in the first place. I did not come into politics
because I enjoy the sport. I came into it because I saw it
as a place where we can make change and make a positive
difference. And so I often talk about my history, the time
that I spent living in a little town called Murupara, where
I first saw that there was significant poverty and
inequality in New Zealand. And I have always had a belief
that we could be better than
that.
JESSICA
So inequality drives you? That’s your
mantra?
JACINDA
It is absolutely one of my drivers. But even then, I also
spent a lot of time living in a place called Morrinsville. A
fantastic place to grow up but heavily dependent on the
dairy industry. From growing up in regional New Zealand, I
saw what can happen if you are overly reliant on single
sectors within the economy and the need to diversify our
economy and have strong regions. So there are a lot of
things about my background that drive my focus in politics,
just as they do for the rest of my
team.
JESSICA You
have called yourself a pragmatic idealist this week. What
does that
mean?
JACINDA
That’s definitely coming from my Morrinsville
side of things. It’s because that speaks to the fact that
I think we should have aspiration for New Zealand.
JESSICA But
pragmatically?
JACINDA
Yeah. But
pragmatically.
JESSICA
So when it suits the
polls?
JACINDA
Oh, no, no, no. Not that pragmatism. I’m willing
to make tough calls that won’t always be popular. I’ve
just talked to you about a regional fuel tax. But what I
mean by that is for instance I’ve talked about having a
belief in things like free education, but New Zealanders
will expect us to only deliver things that we can afford to,
at a time we can afford to. And so I think we should speak
much more often about where we would like to end up, but
also talk about the path to get there. That’s where the
pragmatism
is.
JESSICA
I want to see where you stand on some of these
issues. I’m going to ask you yes or no to answer some of
these.
JACINDA
That is cruel for a
politician.
JESSICA
Yeah, but I’m sure you can handle it. Working
with the Maori Party – yes or
no?
JACINDA
All of these questions, when it comes to
coalitions, that is for after the election. Capital gains
tax?
JESSICA Capital
gains tax – yes or
no?
JACINDA I
will not be campaigning on that this
election.
JESSICA So
no for a capital gains
tax.
JACINDA But
let me be transparent, though, here. I won’t be
campaigning on it in the next seven weeks. I don’t think
anyone would expect us to generate a policy like that in
seven weeks. But I'm very clear on is that we are giving a
mandate to a tax working group, as we’ve always been clear
that we will, to look at the way we tax assets and wealth in
New Zealand.
JESSICA So
laying the groundwork for
post-election?
JACINDA Yeah.
That work will be done after the election. We do not tax
assets and wealth the same way as other countries do. If we
want to look at inequality, then it is necessary that we do
that. But I will not be doing that in this seven
weeks.
JESSICA
Retirement age 65 – yes or
no?
JACINDA I
am not campaigning on that
either.
JESSICA Charter
schools – yes or
no?
JACINDA Charter
schools are gone. But as we’ve always made very clear, any
charter school that exists now that has qualified teachers
that will teach to a curriculum, they have the ability to
transition into being an integrated school or a school of
special character. There’s a pathway for them. But charter
schools as a model is absolutely
gone.
JESSICA To
get to this position where you are able to make these kind
of decisions, you obviously have to grow the vote. There’s
a lot of people who voted for Helen Clark and haven’t
voted for Labour in the elections since. Who are those
voters and how do you get them to vote for
you?
JACINDA Yeah,
and I think it’s probably a lot of people sit around and
breakdown those individual voting blocs and groups. But
actually I am not interested in doing that.
JESSICA But
you have to get that centre vote, that light blue vote,
don’t
you?
JACINDA Well,
indeed. Actually, we have just got to grow our vote. We have
to grow our vote. That’s clear. But I am not interested in
breaking down where that comes from. I will take votes from
whichever New Zealanders simply agree with our vision for
New
Zealand.
JESSICA But
how are you going to grow
it?
JACINDA So
we are going to grow it by being ambitious, by talking
positively about what’s possible, both when it comes to
things like our key services – health, housing, education
– but also about what’s possible for New Zealand to set
itself apart as being world-class, world-class in
innovation, particularly around environmental issues,
world-class in well-being for kids. I hope to draw in voters
who believe in the same kind of New Zealand that I do. And I
don't care how they have voted in the
past.
JESSICA Taking
votes from the Greens, though, that’s not how you are
going to be in a position to form government. Are you
focused more on those centre
voters?
JACINDA Again,
as I say, I am not sitting down with every single policy and
going, ‘Which bloc does this appeal to?’ My test for
policy – I know that people probably think politicians are
slightly more cynical than this – but my test for policy
is what are the problems we need to fix, what is the right
thing to do, what will move New Zealand forward? And from
each different policy area, that may encourage people from
different areas to vote for us. But the lens we start with
isn’t, ‘Which voters do we need and what should be say
to them?’ And that may come as a surprise to people, but
that’s not my starting
point.
JESSICA But
that’s the basics, though, isn’t it? I mean, you have to
have the numbers to be in
Parliament.
JACINDA
The basics is growing your vote. There is
absolutely no doubt. But that is not my starting point for
how I deliver policy. I look for the ideas that we need to
make New Zealand
better.
JESSICA Why
do you think you can you do a better job than Andrew
Little?
JACINDA
Yeah, look, it is hard as someone who was in the
leadership team to sit there and be able to objectively
reflect on that. And I'm not the best person to ask. I was
there with Andrew. And from where I was sitting, he was
working incredibly hard, doing the best job that he could.
And I have huge amount of respect for him.
JESSICA He only
was on
24%.
JACINDA I
understand. And that’s why he made the decision he did and
then went on to immediately nominate me to come in as the
new leader. And that was a phenomenal thing to do. But all I
know is I bring my own style of leadership, and people will
make a decision as to whether or not
that—
JESSICA What
is your style of
leadership?
JACINDA I’m
relentlessly positive, which I’ve already said. I want to
grow a vision for New Zealand, a positive vision for New
Zealand, as to how we can rebuild a reputation as being
world-class. I am focused on issues like inequality, but
when I talk about that, I also acknowledge that actually the
people who are feeling the squeeze right now are people who
have traditionally been considered to sit in the middle.
They are our New Zealanders who are also feeling the
squeeze. So those are the individuals that I want to look to
me and hear from me a vision that they think will make a
difference in their
lives.
JESSICA Some
of the things you described there are similar, somewhat, to
John Key. How do you feel about that comparison this
week?
JACINDA I
have heard that comparison. I have heard a number of others,
some more flattering than others. I have heard Helen Clark
comes up a bit as well. Look, ultimately, we will all be our
own leaders, with our different styles. People make their
own comparisons, but I am not fixating on them particularly.
If the common denominator in all of them is victory, that
element I would be happy to
take.
JESSICA
Let’s talk about this week because on Friday,
with Metiria Turei, before she decided that she was going to
not seek a ministerial role, your office gave her a call and
said you wouldn’t have her, then you talked about it in
your media conference. Why not give her some dignity in
that?
JACINDA To
be very, very clear, I can't tell you 100% at what point
Metiria made her own
decision.
JESSICA But
you said you wouldn’t have her, so that makes her
decision, she’s only got one
decision.
JACINDA She
may have already made that decision at that point. And
actually, I pushed back very hard and said anyone who
implied that what I did pre-empted that decision actually is
the one not giving the dignity to
Metiria.
JESSICA But
it doesn't matter when she made the decision. You wouldn’t
have her. So that’s the full stop in the
conversation.
JACINDA It
was only fair, It was only fair that I convey to her team
and to Metiria exactly what I would say if I was
asked.
JESSICA
So then why talk about it in
public?
JACINDA Because
I was asked. I was asked. And it was important that I give
an honest reflection of what I would do in that scenario.
And I’ve been very clear. The only reason I'm talking
about that question is because if we were in a situation of
being in Cabinet, as Prime Minister, I would be asked to
make that call, and so would answer that
question.
JESSICA But
it also shows that you have grit and you’re steely,
doesn’t it? It shows that you’re not a pushover. And is
that what you wanted to
demonstrate?
JACINDA It
shows I work with integrity and that I will also be very
open and transparent with the support partners I work with
but also with the public when
asked.
JESSICA Is
it important that you show that strength and that
steeliness?
JACINDA I think
it’s important that I just be myself. I didn’t sit there
and reflect about what this demonstrated. I just did the
right
thing.
JESSICA
In terms of working with the Green Party, why even
have the MOU? Why not ditch it? Wasn’t your MOU. Get rid
of it – they’re not going anywhere – and talk after
September
23rd?
JACINDA
I do still think that the MOU offers something to
voters.
JESSICA What
does it offer to you guys,
though?
JACINDA It
offers to voters, who we’re asking to support us, some
transparency. And I think this has been one of the major
issues with MMP is that we are continually drawn into long
conversations about the what ifs and who might partner with
who. And it tends to unfortunately dominate conversation I
think sometimes more than it should. And so we are going to
focus on ourselves this election. But I do think giving some
transparency to voters, to say, ‘But if we are in a
position to govern, yes, we will work with the
Greens.’
JESSICA James
Shaw – ministerial
position?
JACINDA None
of those different
elements—
JESSICA Would
you rule it out,
though?
JACINDA Look,
all of it depends on the make-up that voters deliver us. As
much as anything, that’s in voters’
hands.
JESSICA Would
you rule out deputy prime minister for
him?
JACINDA We are not having
coalition negotiations on Q+A. I appreciate the question.
But all of it will come down to what New Zealanders deliver
us on September
23rd.
JESSICA But
on one hand you are saying you need to know what it looks
like, working with Labour and the Greens, but then you won't
say who you will have in a leadership position. We can
safely assume you’d prepared to have him in a leadership
position.
JACINDA What’s
obvious to voters, because they’ve seen it before, is that
if a party plays a significant role in a coalition, they
tend to have Cabinet positions. I mean, that’s obvious.
But the whys and wherefores of that, I don’t think it’s
helpful to get into that at this
point.
JESSICA
People have been questioning this week about
whether you can work with Winston Peters. Do you know what
he is
like?
JACINDA Well,
of course. I have been in and around politics for a number
of years. So I certainly anticipate what his working style
would be. I do find it interesting, though, as to why the
question is being asked could I work with Winston. I don’t
hear that question as often asked of other political
leaders.
JESSICA
Do you feel like it is motivated because of being
a woman? Is that what you
mean?
JACINDA I
am not going to waste too much time thinking about
that.
JESSICA Is
that what you
meant?
JACINDA My
assumption from that is they might be drawing— No, I don't
know. It could be a whole manner of things. But I think I'm
as equipped as anyone else to work with Winston
Peters.
Please find attached the full
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1.
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