Q+A: Murray McCully interviewed by Jessica Mutch


Murray McCully exit interview – we weren’t pressured by US over UN’s Israel resolution

Outgoing Foreign Minister Murray McCully says there was no pressure from the US for New Zealand to co-sponsor a UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel's continued settlements.
The resolution, passed in December 2016, said the settlements violated international law and undermined a two-state solution in Israel's conflict with Palestine.
In an exit interview with TVNZ’s Q&A programme Mr McCully talked about receiving a phone call from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu soon after.
“I was left in no doubt about the strength of the Prime Minister’s feelings,” he said of the call, but said New Zealand had not been pressure by the US to co-sponsor the resolution.

Mr McCully said one of the biggest challenges for a New Zealand foreign minister was being in a “constant state of jet lag”.
“One of the things people don’t think about in this job because it all looks pretty glamorous and a lot of business class travel … is the fact that you turn up to some of the biggest meetings of your career jet lagged out of your skull.”
Mr McCully said he hadn’t given his successor and long-time friend Gerry Brownlee any advice about the job but would answer any questions if he had them.

Political Scientist Dr Claire Robinson said Mr McCully leaves behind a legacy of low morale within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
“It’s remarkable he’s been a Minister of Foreign Affairs for eight and a half years, that’s a very long time,” she said speaking as a panellist on Q+A this morning.
“In terms of his role as a Minister of Foreign Affairs internally, however, in New Zealand he’s possibly been the most rude, disrespectful and interfering Minister of Foreign Affairs the Ministry has ever had,” she said.
However fellow panellist Fran O’Sullivan said “I think internationally he was effective. What stands out for me was the relationship with the key powers, the United States and also China.”

END

Please find attached the full transcript of the interview and here is the link on our webpage.

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Q + A
Episode 8
MURRAY MCCULLY
Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH

JESSICA Murray McCully is quitting politics at the election and will finish up his eight-and-a-half year stint as foreign minister tomorrow. Known as one of National’s backroom strategists, the Dark Prince – as some have called him – has helped see a number of National leaders rise and fall. His disappointments? Not getting free-trade agreements with Europe and the Gulf states, but he told me he’d had some big successes too, and forging an independent foreign policy was one.

MURRAY For us, of course, that raised the question of the anti-nuclear legislation relationship with the United States, whether we wanted to be a part of the ANZUS alliance and indeed whether it would be possible to restore the US relationship to something good but different, and I’d like to think that we've managed to achieve all of that. We've had a couple of US ship visits, which has been terrific, after 30 years. We've got a level of trust and confidence in the relationship that I’m very proud of, and we've got an independent foreign policy, which means that we are able to give our own New Zealand view on matters of world affairs.

JESSICA Because I would have thought you would have said getting the seat on the UN Security Council would go down as your biggest achievement. Does that still rate up there?

MURRAY Oh, of course it does. I mean, the diplomatic business is a wonderful thing. You've got this vast army of diplomats, who are trained to put the best possible spin on every meeting or every engagement, and there's something that's very different about a Security Council race, because the numbers go up on the board, and you look on a particular day, and the numbers don't lie. It's the most objective measurement of success. John Key said to me afterwards that it was like winning the world cup in diplomacy, getting three-quarters of the countries in the world to vote for us, and I certainly put that right up there, as it was a great privilege to have the opportunity to lead the campaign and then to serve on the council.

JESSICA What was the hardest decision you made, then? Was there something that kept you up at night and, perhaps, you still think about?

MURRAY No.

JESSICA Not one decision that kept you up at night?

MURRAY No. Oh, look, I’ve been kept up a lot at night, and when you live with a constant state of jetlag, that's a normal way to live, but I can honestly say that I don't feel uncomfortable about any of the big decisions we've made during my time in office. And I look at all of the relationships that we've got with other countries and, you know, with a couple of blemishes, I think we've actually left things in pretty good shape.

JESSICA What are the blemishes you're talking about?

MURRAY Oh, look, wouldn't want to go into that, because that just makes life harder for my successor, but there are obviously a couple of areas where, for reasons that I regard as valid, we might have annoyed people.

JESSICA Israel, for example?

MURRAY Oh, well, that's clearly one, yes.

JESSICA What I'm interested in is that conversation you had with Prime Minister Netanyahu. What was that like, first of all, being told you had that call on the phone? And then tell me what that was like.

MURRAY Oh, look, I've never said anything publically much about the content of the call. I mean, there's been an Israeli media report that's been fed by the Israeli side. All I'll say is that I was left in no doubt about the strength of the prime minister's feelings. But look, on this thing, I think it's important to say that what was at issue here was New Zealand’s position on the two-state solution. I don't think any true friend of Israel wants to see the two-state solution disappear as an option, because it takes you into a completely different debate that no one wants to have.

JESSICA Because Israel took issue with you sponsoring this resolution. Why did you choose to do that? Why not just support it?

MURRAY Yeah, so this was a very unusual set of circumstances, that the resolution was actually tabled on behalf of the Arab group, by Egypt on the 22nd of December. So it was well after the year had concluded in most foreign ministries, our own included. But between the time they tabled it and the time that it was going to be on the table for debate, the Egyptians changed their minds about sponsoring it. And that left the co-sponsors, of which I think there were four, to determine whether to proceed or not. Now, the fact is that the co-sponsorship was something that I had specifically mandated, because the resolution ticked the boxes of our long-standing policy, two-state solution, condemn the violence, condemn the incitement.

JESSICA Were you pressured by the US to do that, though?

MURRAY No.

JESSICA Because otherwise people from the outside might say, ‘Why do that?’ Why annoy Israel in that way? Because there was a lot of fallout from that decision, wasn't there?

MURRAY Oh, look, I’m aware that some people have got exotic explanations as to what actually happened, but the truth is somewhat simpler. There was a resolution put on the table. They weren't our words. Actually, we'd tried to get some constructive language that we thought was better. And we simply failed to get acceptance by any of the parties for that. And somebody else put something on the table, and we judged it on its merits.

JESSICA Do you regret the damage that it caused, though?

MURRAY Oh, look, I always regret relationships that are damaged in the foreign policy world, but actually, the content of the resolution is actually much different from what some people have represented it to be. I think we all support a two-state solution. That's been mainstream New Zealand thinking for a long time. We condemn the violence and incitement, and we oppose settlement activity that undermines the two-state solution. New Zealand’s position is well established on those things.

JESSICA Because another blot on your copybook, if you like, was the Saudi sheep scandal. Even though the auditor-general said that she shared many New Zealanders’ concerns about the arrangement, do you wish that things had been handled differently, in hindsight?

MURRAY Oh, look, I wish I'd never had the problem to deal with. I didn't create it. I inherited it, we’d, through a series of actions, and people can go and inspect the record themselves.

JESSICA So you inherited the deal – is that what you mean?

MURRAY No, I inherited a completely poisoned relationship, not just with one country, but with one region. We'd completed negotiations of the free-trade agreement back in 2009. And because of the damage that had been done, it was put on hold, more or less permanently. And we were told we had to find a way of restoring a relationship with Saudi Arabia in order to be able to normalise the trade and economic relationship and proceed with the free-trade agreement.

JESSICA Was that the only way to handle it, though? Do you think in hindsight, you would have done it differently?

MURRAY No, I absolutely believe that I did what was in New Zealand’s best interests, in the best way I could. I accept that there are people that have got a different view. All I’ll say, and I said this at the time of the auditor-general's report, is that I'm quite happy to personally take the brick bats, but when the free-trade agreement gets across the line, and we get those runs on the board and they start handing out some bouquets, I hope they remember my name at that stage.

JESSICA Do you accept the auditor-general's concerns, though?

MURRAY I've never disputed it.

JESSICA I want to ask you – sitting down with Gerry Brownlee and having a chat with him, what's the one piece of advice you're going to give him?

MURRAY I have already had a good discussion with Gerry Brownlee. He's, as you probably know, a very old friend of mine, and I think he'll be a very good foreign minister. And I haven't presumed to give him any advice, because he's a vastly experienced politician.

JESSICA Even something practical, though?

MURRAY Oh, look, I’ve said I’ll answer any questions you've got, but he will do things differently. He will do things his way. And it's good to have that sort of change in a government and in a country like this, and I wish him every success.

JESSICA You have a reputation among your colleagues – a nickname, if you like – of being the Black Prince. What do you think of that nickname?

MURRAY I think it was bestowed upon me by friends and was meant in a generous way, so I accept it in the spirit in which it was done.

JESSICA It's stuck, though, and gives you the reputation of being a wheeler and dealer and strategist in the National party. Is that accurate?

MURRAY Oh, look, it's fair to say that I spent over 20 years of my political career involved at the challenging end of domestic politics.

JESSICA And you were a wheeler and dealer, weren't you? You were a big deal, a big player?

MURRAY Oh, look, I know that people have got to fill newspapers or TV shows, need to paint an exotic picture of this, but it's never been as glamourous from my perspective. All I can say is that I've been very lucky, actually. From the time that Jim Bolger invited me into the ministry in 1991, I've had a role serving a range of leaders, in a range of different ways. Everyone comes into politics to make a difference, to have an influence, and I've been given over that period, many opportunities to have an influence. I'm very grateful for that opportunity.

JESSICA You've gone through some scraps as well with the party. Were there any moments that you look back on and pinch-me moments, or did that go away a few years ago?

MURRAY Oh, look, always. This is a really tough business. And to play at the sharp end for as long as I have, yep, there are going to be some bumps and scratches. And at the end of the day, you have to remind yourself that it's not personal.

JESSICA Is that hard, though? Because it is personal, isn't it?

MURRAY Of course it's hard, but that's what you sign up for. And at the end of the day, you're just a product, just a can of baked beans, if you like. And you've just got to actually resist the temptation to take it all too personally.

JESSICA One of the people you did do a bit of wheeling and dealing with, some might say, is Shane Jones.

JESSICA You did a speech to the Institute of International Affairs in recent times and credited Shane Jones with his work in the Pacific. Was part of the attraction of Shane Jones luring him away from the Labour Party? Because he resonated with some voters.

MURRAY Oh, look, it wouldn’t be, I think, accurate for me to say that it never crossed my mind.

JESSICA Had a little bit of the Black Prince part of it?

MURRAY Yeah, but look, Shane Jones and I have known each other well from long before he came into Parliament. He’s a guy I’ve always had a lot of respect for. And we’d travelled a bit together in the Pacific. And actually, because I’ve taken a number of tours with Members of Parliament along, and we share a passion to see the Pacific region move ahead to deal with some of the challenges there. And one of the big ones, of course, is to try and put the Pacific tuna fishery on to a sustainable basis. And Shane’s got some particular skills and experience in that space.

JESSICA Will you be raising a glass of champagne if he goes and joins New Zealand First after this? Will you see that as a win?

MURRAY Well, I know people find this quite hard to believe, that he and I have been very proper about this. I’ve arranged in a couple of weeks’ time to catch up with him to hear what his plans are. But we’re both being far too professional to have that sort of conversation while we have the professional relationship we have.

JESSICA Okay. Okay, I’ll take your word on that one. Winston Peters – how does he fit into the mix with this? What’s your take on that? Could National work with him? Could he be Foreign Minister again?

MURRAY Oh, look, Winston Peters was my predecessor as Foreign Minister. He’s a guy I’ve known for a very long time. He’s a very experienced Parliamentarian. And I’ve always tried to show him appropriate respect for that reason. But as far as the events later this year are concerned, the Prime Minister, I think, is the person to talk to about that. And I wish him well.

JESSICA One of the questions I wanted to ask you before you go – as journalists, we stand outside the door when you have these important meetings and you do the handshake, then you walk inside. And we never know what goes on inside there. Was there one moment where you walked into the room and you had strips torn off you or walked into the room and thought it was going to be difficult and it was? Does anything stand out for you? This is my curiosity asking, you see.

MURRAY No. No, I can’t point to one meeting, but I can say that one of the things that people don’t think about in this job, cos it all looks pretty glamourous and a lot of business-class air travel and so on, but one of the things to come to terms with is the fact that you turn up to some of the biggest meetings of your career jetlagged out of your skull, with the jetlag really kicking in just as you’re just starting a meeting with Hillary Clinton or John Kerry or something like that or just as you’re about to speak in the presidency of the Security Council. The job looks glamourous, but actually, one of the harsh realities when you come from New Zealand is that you are always dealing with that constant fog of jetlag.

JESSICA We are talking later in the programme about Donald Trump and his one hundred years – it feels like it – one hundred days in office. What’s your take on how he’s been doing?

MURRAY Oh, look, I think from a foreign-policy point of view, you’ve got to remember that this is an administration that is not yet formed. So you’ve got people like Rex Tillerson, the Secretary of State; you’ve got the Defence Secretary, Mattis; hugely capable individuals, I think pretty well respected internationally. But, of course, you look at the next layer down, and it’s just not there yet. So the people who run the relationship on a day-to-day basis with New Zealand as well as in our area, of course -- Japan, China, Philippines, all of the ASEAN stuff – the assistant secretary is not yet appointed. The people who will do all of that work to make the Secretary of State effective are not yet in their jobs. So this is taking an unusual amount of time to happen, but I don’t think anyone can form too many conclusions without those personnel being there.

Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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