Little’s Position on the TPP Wrong: Mike Moore
Former Labour leader and ex-ambassador to the US, Mike Moore, says while he doesn’t want to criticise current Labour
leader Andrew Little, but he disagrees with Mr Little’s opposition to the TPP agreement. He spoke to Q+A’s Jessica Mutch
at his Auckland home on Friday, where he is still recovering from a serious stroke 18 months ago.
He agreed the current Labour opposition to the TPP was a political stance – one he disagreed with.
“Look, a lot of the disagreement I disagree with. I think it doesn’t go far enough. It doesn’t go far enough. Our dairy
farmers are getting very little, nothing, so we can ask for more. So maybe we’re opposed to it because it doesn’t go far
enough.”
He said globalisation and free trade were positives for New Zealand.
“What we’ve done in the last 30 years has been remarkable. We’ve produced more wealth in the last 40 years than the rest
of civilisation put together. Look what’s happening in China — 400 or 500 million people out of extreme poverty. India
the same. Europe the same.
And look at New Zealand. We’re going quite well, thank you. What are we going to do? Knit our own aeroplanes? We can’t
do it, and we need to be involved in the global supply chain, and I think we’ve managed quite well. Thank God Labour was
in in the ‘80s to fix this country so it could stand up.”
Q + A
Episode 34
MIKE MOORE
Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH
GREG‘Pity the old body gave up,’ the words of Mike Moore as he regretfully gave up his mission as New Zealand’s ambassador
to the US at the end of last year. 18 months ago the former Labour prime minister and WTO director-general had a serious
stroke, and that led to the end of his time in Washington and a long recovery back to health. But when Jessica Mutch
interviewed him at his Auckland home on Friday, Mike Moore was adamant his long political career was far from over. He
has at least a few books still in him, he said. Jessica began her interview by asking how he was doing.
MIKEI’m doing well. About a year ago I had a stroke in DC, and I can just move that hand just slightly. Now we’re okay,
except I can’t move. I can’t walk as far as I used to between meetings and things. So I’ve had one stroke, and two more
and you’re out.
JESSICAHow are you getting your head around it? Is it a tough thing for someone in your position?
MIKENo. I think I’ve done okay. I was going to retire anyway from DC. It took six months off m. And I think I got what I
wanted to do in DC through in the main, so I was at peace with that.
JESSICABecause one of the things that you did do in DC, obviously a big focus was the TPP.
MIKEMm.
JESSICAYou know that inside out. Is it dead in the water? Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump have both publicly said they’re not
interested.
MIKEYes. Well, Hillary is strong for trade. She’s spoken for trade. She likes trade. She understands. She’s not a fool. So
it may have to be dressed a little differently and rewritten some of it, but I think in the main she understands how
wealth is created. And the rest of the world thinks the TPP is a jack-up by the States, and the States thinks it’s a
jack-up against them. So that’s how it is.
JESSICADo you think it’ll just be TPP by another name? Do you think it was a political decision for her and she needs something
to change so she can come out and support it?
MIKEI would think so. I would think so. But, you know, the world has gone against trade in a number of areas.
JESSICABecause, interestingly, Andrew Little has come out and said that it means the government loses its right to make laws
and it won’t be the economic benefits that’s promised and there’ll be thousands of job losses. What’s your take on that?
MIKEI don’t want to say that I disagree with my leader, but it’s not the position.
JESSICADo you think that he is perhaps taking a political stance on this as well? Perhaps similar to Hillary Clinton’s?
MIKEYes, in a way like Hillary Clinton. They’ll want to tidy up one or two things. Look, a lot of the disagreement I
disagree with. I think it doesn’t go far enough. It doesn’t go far enough. Our dairy farmers are getting very little,
nothing, so we can ask for more. So maybe we’re opposed to it because it doesn’t go far enough.
JESSICAIn terms of globalisation, that’s another thing that you’ve become a world leader on. You speak out on it often. Do you
think in New Zealand with things like our selling off our forests and our water and our land, is that what you intended
with globalisation?
MIKESovereign governments can do what they like over the land, electricity and that sort of thing or schools. That’s not to
do with globalisation. That’s by-products. Some do, some don’t. I would not like to see a sell-off of some of our key
assets, but a government may intend to do that.
JESSICAYou call it a by-product, though. Is it something that we’ve perhaps lost control of, do you think, as a result of
globalisation?
MIKENo, I don’t think we’ve lost control of it at all. I think we’ve got arrogant. We’re too busy doing the job, not busy
explaining to people what comes of it, and therefore the public resent it.
JESSICAWhat do you mean by arrogant?
MIKEWell, when you’re a minister and you’re working on these sort of things, you work so hard, you travel so much, you’re
doing so much work that you sometimes leave the people behind. And it happened to us. It happened to the Labour
Government. It maybe happened to this one in this one area.
JESSICABecause some people say that globalisation is failing a lot of people. What do you say to that?
MIKEIt is failing those people at the bottom, some of them, but wait a minute. Hang on, what we’ve done in the last 30 years
has been remarkable. We’ve produced more wealth in the last 40 years than the rest of civilisation put together. Look
what’s happening in China — 400 or 500 million people out of extreme poverty. India the same. Europe the same. And look
at New Zealand. We’re going quite well, thank you. What are we going to do? Knit our own aeroplanes? We can’t do it, and
we need to be involved in the global supply chain, and I think we’ve managed quite well. Thank God Labour was in in the
‘80s to fix this country so it could stand up.
JESSICAI want to talk to you about the US election as well. How well do you know Hillary Clinton, and do you think that the US
is in safe hands with her?
MIKEI know Hillary Clinton quite well. She understands New Zealand. She went to the Rarotonga meeting. She is a friend of
Murray McCully. I think she’s prepped and she’s ready to go. But our interests will not replace America’s interests, and
they never will, and they shouldn’t.
JESSICAWhat’s she like? Was there any moment where you met her when something stuck with you or resonated with her?
MIKENo, she’s very professional, and she’s spot on in her arguments. But she knew who she was talking to.
JESSICAYeah.
MIKEBut therefore, it’s good, though, that she’s done her homework.
JESSICADo you think America is in safe hands with her?
MIKEI think so, yeah.
JESSICAWhy do you think people dislike her so much? Can you give us a bit of context, having been in America for so long?
MIKEI think she’s been in it so long that she’s robotic and you can predict what she’s going to say, and it’s always to the
point and well briefed.
JESSICAAnd do you think that’s what grates with the US people, they see her as the establishment?
MIKEShe is the establishment.
JESSICAYou talk about her being robotic. Does she have charisma behind closed doors?
MIKEOh yes, she is a very bright person. She’s on top of the subject, and what you’re saying, you’re criticising her because
she knows what’s going on. And as for Trump, well, God help me.
JESSICAWhat do you think of Trump?
MIKEIt’s not printable.
JESSICAGive us a little glimpse. Have you had much to do with him?
MIKENo, I have not. I have not sought it out.
JESSICAIt’s not realistic that he’s going to be the president, is it?
MIKEI have too much faith in the American people to think that they could vote for him.
JESSICABut why is his anti-immigration and his—?
MIKEYou have a look. Anti-immigration is quite a popular position to take. It’s taken in New Zealand by some and by American
business. Some in New Zealand do the same. It’s a position globally that’s acceptable— well, not acceptable, but you can
understand why it’s happening. But I think it’s worth 30% of the vote, 40% of the vote. I shudder to think we’ll have a
world where these kind of primitives control it.
JESSICAHe’s got something, though, doesn’t he?
MIKEYeah, he abuses people.
JESSICADo you think that’s what it is?
MIKEYes. Well, it’s more than that. Those who are hurt and feel they can do better, and he speaks to them. And so America’s
an interesting place. The poorest constituencies, electorates, white ones, the Republicans hold. The Republicans hold
most of the states in America.
JESSICAYou’ve been exposed to all these leaders. You’ve been prime minister yourself. You’ve seen up close the best prime
ministers in New Zealand. What advice do you have for Andrew Little at the moment?
MIKEOh, Andrew’s got to stick to his guns. He’s good, and he ought to look at changing the party rules.
JESSICAWhat do you mean by that?
MIKEParty leadership should be controlled by the caucus.
JESSICAAnd why do you think that’s so important?
MIKEBecause you get 5000, 10,000 party members, and they’ll go in a bloc, but they aren’t the caucus. If every member of the
Labour Party lived in my old electorate and voted for me, I would still lose the seat.
JESSICAWhy as a former prime minister is it important to have the backing of the caucus?
MIKEBecause you need to lead people and take them down roads they’ve not travelled before. It’s a very lonely job, and the
roads we haven’t travelled in the next few years are going to be important to us. The jobs we’re going to have in the
future are not like the jobs we have now. And you’ve got to talk your people through it. If you can’t do that by working
the base and working it out, you’ll become a conservative party.
JESSICAYou talked about Andrew Little before as ‘my leader’. Has he sought advice from you?
MIKEBefore he became leader and we’ve talked on the phone, I think, yes. And I have no problem with Andrew. I wish him well.
JESSICAIs he resonating, though?
MIKEI don’t know.
JESSICAOur latest polls say he’s not. He’s 26% at the moment for the Labour Party.
MIKEIt’s very seldom you get a leader of the Opposition who wins. I won for three years, except for one month, I won those
polls, John Key won them. But we’re the last of only two. You can’t expect— And Norman Kirk didn’t win the polls, but
once he was in, bang.
JESSICAHe has to do a bit better than 26%, do you think? How does he get out there and resonate with the public? Is it the
message? Is it the person delivering the message?
MIKEI think he needs to think carefully about what he believes in and go for it.
JESSICAWhat do you mean by that?
MIKEWell, what do you believe? We’re driven too much by opinion polls. You’ve raised this. Just do what’s right, and the
opinion polls will come the other way. And opinion polls should be a mechanism to judge policy to see how it floats, but
it shouldn’t decide policy. You can’t do it. When your banking system’s collapsing, are you going to run an opinion
poll? Well, after the decision to see whether it’ll float or not, but not really.
JESSICADo you still feel any bitterness or resent for how you were treated in Labour? Labour’s hard to its leaders.
MIKEI do feel a little resentful. I got the biggest swing to Labour except for 1935. I think it was 29 seats. To walk into
the room and to be attacked for that, I think they should have at least stopped and said thank you. But, anyway, that’s
politics. It’s tough, and that’s the way it is.
JESSICAIn hindsight, though, do you feel like you would’ve done anything differently at that time?
MIKEWell, I’d have done a lot differently.
JESSICACan you think of anything?
MIKEWe had no money. We didn’t do opinion polls in the last month of the election campaign.
JESSICAReally?
MIKEDon’t tell anyone that. We’ll seem like amateur hour. But that’s how we operated, and a lot of work inside the
Parliament. There’s never been a National Party defeated in three years. It’s a hell of a job. And a lot of the members
of Parliament were just tired. They couldn’t get up in the morning, couldn’t do the hard work any more.
JESSICAHow annoying was that, though, as prime minister?
MIKEWell, it was annoying, and I went over the top of them and they came right.
JESSICABut did you feel like getting out a cattle prod with some of them?
MIKEWell, actually, I think I might have. Yeah, there were those who were just too tired.
JESSICAWhat about for you going into the future? What are you thinking short-term at the moment?
MIKEI’ll get myself walking again. I’ve got some writing to do. I’ve still got a couple of books in me. Maybe this one will
be read.
JESSICABecause you’re still in hot demand. That’s the thing.
MIKEWell, that’s nice to say. But I’m in hot demand because I’m not saying anything. I believe in the Labour Party. I
believe in the principles of the party, the leadership, and I wish them well.