Q+A: Deputy Labour leader Annette King and Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson interviewed by Corin Dann

Deputy Labour leader Annette King wouldn’t be drawn on the question of whether she would stand in the Rongotai electorate at the next election.

“I’m not ruling anything in or out. I never have before any election. I consider it and then make a decision, and I promise you I’ll let you know.”

Annette King also told TV One’s Q+A programme that, “I want to be part of the next Labour government, the sixth Labour government, and I do want to lead the Health portfolio. I’ve got the experience in it, I’ve got ideas in terms of fixing what’s wrong with it, and I’ve still got the energy.”

Labour Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson told political editor Corin Dann that, ‘we’ve said before we believe there is the scope in a fairer tax system for those who earn the most to pay a little bit more. That happens all around the world.’

‘Look, I think we’ve got to be able to go to New Zealanders in 2017 with a sense of a direction of travel in terms of tax. And I’m sure there will be some announcements about tax.’

Q+A, 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE and one hour later on TV ONE plus 1. Repeated Sunday evening at 11:35pm. Streamed live atwww.tvnz.co.nz

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Q + A
Episode 37
ANNETTE KING, GRANT ROBERTSON
Interviewed by CORIN DANN

CORIN Annette King, if I could start with you. Yesterday in your speech, you likened yourself to Hilary Clinton, in that you’re the same age, you announced. I’m just wondering, you know, you have taken on the deputy’s role. A lot of people thought that you might be nearing retirement. But are you actually signalling that, you know, you’re in this for the long haul and you want to go right through, be Health Minister? What’s the goal for you?

ANNETTE Indeed. I want to be part of the next Labour government, the sixth Labour government, and I do want to lead the Health portfolio. I’ve got the experience in it, I’ve got ideas in terms of fixing what’s wrong with it, and I’ve still got the energy. And when I likened myself to Hilary Clinton, it was only—

CORIN 68, I might add, just in case people were wondering.

ANNETTE …only in that she wants to be the president of the United States, and I’m very happy to be the deputy leader of the Labour Party.

GRANT Little pause, though, wasn’t there, just before that next line?

ANNETTE So, no, I’m not running for president of the United States.

CORIN So you want to be Health spokesman, and you’ve been strong in that area in opposition. But I wonder, you know, there’s a lot of money needed in health, isn’t there? And you want things like free dental care. You want to see a big increase in this.

ANNETTE Look, when we were last in government, we managed to put in place some real changes in health. We brought back affordable primary healthcare. We doubled the money in mental health. We put the money where the priorities were. I don’t see that happening now. That’s why we got people waiting and waiting for procedures, people not getting mental health services. We’ve seen the cost of primary healthcare decreasing. So I know what we need to do.

CORIN So are you saying it will take a jump in funding similar to what we saw in the last Labour government – 700-odd-million extra pumped into health? Is that what’s needed in New Zealand?

ANNETTE What you have to do in Health is you have to at least meet the cost pressures. They’re not meeting the cost pressures under this government. There’s $1.7 billion missing in the Health budget.

CORIN Right. I can see your Finance spokesman next to you squirming over here. Because this is the point – will you run deficits? What would you cut in order to find the money to pump billions extra into Health? Where’s that going to come from?

GRANT Annette’s right. It’s about priorities. And clearly we’re not going to be able to solve every single problem in the Health sector in the first budget. But what we will do is outline a plan to meet those cost pressures. We owe that to New Zealanders to have that health system as the building block of a good society. And it is actually an investment. If we invest in primary healthcare, we save money at the other end of the system.

CORIN But the money has to come from somewhere.

GRANT Sure.

CORIN Will you raise taxes to do it?

GRANT As Andrew’s already said to you, the tax policy’s being worked on now. We’ve said before we believe there is the scope in a fairer tax system for those who earn the most to pay a little bit more. That happens all around the world. What we will do in 2017 is go to New Zealanders with a clear picture of a Health budget and how we’re going to meet those cost pressures.

CORIN Sure. Can I just clarify, though? So Labour would do a tax review when it comes into office. So we’re talking— that’s your capital-gains taxes, those sorts of things – look at them and then go for a mandate in 2020 if they’re elected. But an income tax increase to fund the types of things that Annette’s talking about here – is that likely after 2017? Does that need to have a review, or would you just do it?

GRANT Look, I think we’ve got to be able to go to New Zealanders in 2017 with a sense of a direction of travel in terms of tax. And I’m sure there will be some announcements about tax. What Andrew is indicating is that on those big items around how we do ensure we’ve got a fair tax system, we need to be in government, use the resources of Treasury and IRD, which we don’t have access to today, to come up with that comprehensive package. But of course we’ll have things to say about what we want to do in that first term and how we’re going to pay for it.

CORIN But doesn’t it come back to being this idea of Labour needing to be bold? Because Labour has campaigned before. You campaigned before to get into government with Helen Clark on a tax increase. It has been done.

GRANT Yeah.

CORIN I mean, Annette, do you think that it needs to be done, you need to say, ‘There’s a good reason for this. It pays for our health,’ and go out there and be bold?

ANNETTE I think you’ve just heard from Grant our direction of travel in this area. What I would say is that you will need to put additional money into health, but also education. Education is also in a terrible state. So then it gets down to what are your priorities with the money that you already get in? I mean, the government brings in billions of dollars into its coffers. You then make your decisions on what your priorities are, and we’re going to clearly set out what our priorities are, and obviously health will be one of them, but so will education and so will jobs. You’ve heard that. So look for the priorities that we set, and you will see where the money goes.

CORIN Well, one of those priorities, Grant Robertson, yesterday you talked about bringing unemployment back down to 4%. In the current environment, with immigration running at 60,000-net-plus migrants, some saying that’s going to last for the rest of the year. Who knows when that particular boom will end? There’s no way you could get it down to 4% with migration coming in at those levels, boosting the labour force. So will you look at changing the migration settings, in particular around student visas?

GRANT I think it’ll be the third time we’ve had this discussion on Q+A, Corin. And, look, clearly, we believe that immigration should be a bonus to the economy. It should fill the gaps. That’s what it’s about -- making sure that we’ve got the skills that we need in New Zealand. Long term, we’ve got to be training our own people to do those jobs. But in the short term, that’s what it’s for. We do believe that we can manage immigration policy better, manage the flows. We do want to see wages increased. That’s actually a big part of making sure that work is properly rewarded. So we will look at those immigration policy settings. But ultimately we will get unemployment down by investing in our regions, by building infrastructure, by reporting research and development. We’ll actually do that rather than— Immigration will be part of the picture, but I’m much more interested in what we can do as a government to support businesses to create those high-paying jobs.

CORIN There will be businesspeople sitting here, watching, saying, ‘There is no way you’re going to get unemployment down by forcing wages up, through higher minimum wages and by living wages.’ That is going to lead to them cutting jobs.

GRANT No, I simply don’t agree with that. I think in an economy where we’re investing alongside businesses, alongside regions, we’ll actually be creating more higher-paid jobs. The minimum wage question is one simply about fairness. I don’t think there’ll be many people watching this programme who think you can bring a family up on $14.75 an hour. We’ve got to lift that, work with businesses so that they are empowered to pay those wages.

CORIN You would have seen the advice that governments get. They get advice that says if you raise the minimum wage to a certain level, it will mean a number— a thousand or so jobs will be cut. That’s how it works, isn’t it?

GRANT No, the government gets all kinds of advice on that. I think Treasury and IRD were at odds the most recent time they talked about that. The history that I’ve seen, the documents that I’ve read say, actually, if you pay people higher minimum wages, they’re the people who spend in our economy. They’re the people who actually help drive business. I think we can put those two things together and do what I said to the conference yesterday is aim for shared prosperity. New Zealand’s actually a wealthy country. Some people are doing really well. The goal of the next Labour Government in the economy is to make sure that everyone gets that chance.

CORIN Annette, that’s an interesting question, because one of the, I guess, issues or criticisms, sometimes, of Labour is that it doesn’t think enough about the aspiration of middle New Zealanders. It’s curbing that aspiration, and National has owned that concept. How do change that?

ANNETTE Well, they own the word, but they don’t necessarily own how we see things in New Zealand, and I think it is important that people do have aspiration. You address the issues that concern their daily lives.

CORIN How do you convince voters that you believe in their aspiration; that you won’t curb that aspiration; that you’re not about taking stuff away from them and giving it to other people?

ANNETTE Well, I don’t think that that’s the approach that we are taking. I think what we’ve done, and certainly in this last year – we’ve spent a lot of time going out and listening and talking to what people say their aspirations are, what they would want to achieve for their families, for their children. And I think what we are doing is putting together a suite of policies that do deal with their aspirations. See, I think people want quite ordinary things. They want a home to live in; they want good education for their kids; they want healthcare when they need it. The sort of day-to-day things, they’re the things that we are addressing, and that’s what our policies are addressing.

CORIN Grant, you’ve dumped the power policy. That was a clear sop to businesses, wasn’t it? That was a signal to business that you guys aren’t going to muck around with them.

GRANT What that was was about a policy which had a great goal – lowering power prices for New Zealanders who do pay too much. But what we are looking at and why we’re reviewing it is because it was difficult to explain.

CORIN And it led to capital fight. It scared business, and it’s a fight you didn’t need. Come on.

GRANT Look, it was a policy that was difficult to explain. It looked overly bureaucratic, and I think we can do better at achieving the goal, which is reducing the cost of power and taking a look at those companies who take super-profits out of the free water that they get.

CORIN Doesn’t it send a message, though? Doesn’t it send a message to business, because that was seen as a very interventionist policy – that you were sticking your oar into business. You’ve pulled it out now. Isn’t that a strategic message you’re sending?

GRANT That’s not the way that we looked at it. We looked at it from the point of view that we’re looking at all our policies and saying, ‘We want to go to New Zealanders at the next election with a clear set, a reduced number of policies that indicate our direction of travel.’ And they’re just as Annette has said – we want to get our focus on how do we create decent work that pays better wages, and how do we support those building blocks of opportunity; education, health, housing.

CORIN OK, just one final question – Annette King, will you be standing in Rongotai at the next election?

ANNETTE That’s a decision I’m yet to make.

CORIN So are you ruling out the possibility?

ANNETTE I’m not ruling anything out or in. I’m just saying it’s a decision I’m yet to make.

CORIN Well, I mean, there’s speculation that you might perhaps just run on the list. That happens. Bill English has done it.

ANNETTE Well, people can speculate.

CORIN And you pass the seat to Andrew Little?

ANNETTE I think Andrew Little’s got his hands full being the leader of the Labour Party, because he is the member for New Zealand.

CORIN It’s a nice solution, though, isn’t it? I mean, it’s a safe seat. He lives there.

ANNETTE I think what you got to wait for— be patient. I’ll make my decision in due course.

CORIN So you’re not ruling anything in or out at this stage?

ANNETTE I’m not ruling anything in or out. I never have before any election. I consider it and then make a decision, and I promise you I’ll let you know.

CORIN All right, Annette King, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, thank you very much.

ANNETTE Thank you.

CORIN Grant Robertson, Finance Spokesman for the Labour Party, thank you for joining us on Q+A this morning.

GRANT Cheers.

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