Q+A: Prime Minister John Key - New Zealand is more at risk from doing nothing than in sending troops to Iraq.

Prime Minister John Key told TV One’s Q+A programme New Zealand is more at risk from doing nothing than in sending troops to Iraq.

“And so I say to New Zealanders, of course there’s some risk with these soldiers that go off to train the Iraqi forces, but there is more risk to everyday New Zealanders by a stronger ISIL. “

John Key told the programme he believes ISIS is a death cult.

“I think so. If you look at what they are doing, they are literally claiming the lives of innocent people, people who just simply do not believe in their world view, or at least, their view from a religious perspective. And you have to say that they have no mercy on anyone.”

John Key also told the programme he will go to Iraq.

“Absolutely. For a start-off, I wouldn’t send NZ soldiers to any place I’m not prepared to go myself.”

John Key said he hasn’t spoken to the Muslim community about New Zealand’s intervention, “but we've offered to go and talk to them, and we're happy to go and talk to them, and we will.

“Not brief them on the intervention, but I'm happy to go and talk to them about what we're doing. “

When asked what the consequences would be for New Zealand re trade, re intelligence, re our foreign policy if you had stood up there with Tony Abbott yesterday and said, ‘We not going to do anything’, the Prime Minister said, “Oh, I think they would have accepted that.”

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Q + A
Episode 1 2015
KEY, JOHN
Interviewed by DANN, CORIN

CORIN Prime Minister John Key, thank you for very much for joining us this morning on Q+A. Is ISIS a death cult?

JOHN I think so. If you look at what they are doing, they are literally claiming the lives of innocent people, people who just simply do not believe in their world view, or at least, their view from a religious perspective. And you have to say that they have no mercy on anyone. I mean, look at Japan. I mean, effectively no engagement, really, at all and yet they beheaded their two hostages.

CORIN But what they want from what we're now learning from articles - and a big one in the Atlantic Monthly just recently - is that they want an apocalypse. They want the end of the world.

JOHN Correct.

CORIN What does that mean for our troops, our 143 troops that we’re going to send there to fight an enemy that wants to see the end of the world?

JOHN Well, if you look at the magazine that they promote, and their magazine is widely distributed on the Internet. It’s called Dabiq. And Dabiq is the place of final battle, if you like. And that’s exactly right. That’s the—That’s their worldview is that they want to declare, and have declared, a caliphate, no boundaries. And simply for their place-

CORIN But isn’t that exactly what they want? They want us to go there and die?

JOHN Yeah, so this is the point. Of course you're right that there is a risk involved in sending New Zealand forces even if they’re in a very secure environment like Taji. Of course there is some risk, because Iraq is a risky place. But all of the advice I get and what I know to be absolutely true, is if we do nothing as countries, a stronger ISIL puts at risk all New Zealanders. So of course you can say there’s some risk to those 143—

CORIN How does it put at risk to all New Zealanders?

JOHN So, there are three things that are happening. One, there are people that work and live in the region of the Middle East. They are clearly at the highest level of risk. Secondly, New Zealanders travel—

CORIN Have you upped the alert level since the announcement?

JOHN In New Zealand? No. But those risk levels are quite high.

CORIN But, I mean, if you're saying that they are suddenly more at risk, surely it is more risky for New Zealanders to travel around the world, particularly through the Middle East?

JOHN Yes, but, I mean, those levels- Some of the countries you are talking about have very high levels of risk already. I mean-

CORIN I mean, what would your advice be to New Zealanders, then, who are thinking of going to areas around the Middle East now?

JOHN Well, it depends on where you are going. I mean, if you are going to Syria or Iraq or those sorts of places, in any capacities I’d say that’s a highly risky thing to do. But you are talking about aid workers and others who go and work there, and they know those risks but they still choose to go.

CORIN Would you stop them?

JOHN Well, no, but I’m they do great work, but I'm simply saying they’re at risk. But secondly, what we know is there are tens of thousands of foreign fighters fighting for ISIL. Now, some of those will clearly be killed as part of what’s happening there, but some will return. They’ll return indoctrinated, and they will be very much in a position where I think they present tremendous risk in these countries-

CORIN Have any of those returning foreign fighters to date been responsible for any terrorists attacks anywhere?

JOHN Look, I don’t think I can't be as definitive as to say no, but I can point to one example. There was a foreign fighter that basically went back to France. He undertook- He’s French, I think, but in Belgium he undertook a terrorist attack at a Jewish Museum. But there are just thousands and thousands of these people, and they are being indoctrinated with the teachings of ISIL. And the third- So if you think about the Muslim countries on our border, you think about Indonesia and Malaysia, those sort of countries, they have a lot of those foreign fighters actually in Iraq and Syria. Some of those people will return, and they will return, and their minds are full of the teachings and the followings of ISIL.

CORIN But you are talking about risk to New Zealanders. I mean, are there any foreign fighters that have returned to New Zealand? Are there any risks being posed by them?

JOHN Foreign fighters- Well, they’re New Zealanders who are part of the foreign fighting group over-

CORIN But none of them have returned to New Zealand?

JOHN No, I don't think so at this point. But there are some that will inevitably come back, or try and come back.

CORIN But you would arrest them, presumably, as soon as they came back?

JOHN That's an interesting point about what the law ultimately allows us to do. But, yes, you know, if we could, of course we would. But that would be, you know, subjected to laws. And then the third real risk, though, is of the 35 to 40 people that are currently sitting on the intensive watch list, what’s happening with those people is they are completely kind of infatuated with the teachings and messages that come out.

CORIN Is it specifically ISIL?

JOHN It’s specifically ISIL, yeah.

CORIN Why don't we just arrest them?

JOHN Yeah, okay, so without breaching some of the things that we’re doing, and all of that, yes, there would be a lot of things we could point to which you could take to a court of law. But, of course, once you get in front of a court of law, people say, ‘Oh, well, you’re misinterpreting my comments. I didn’t really mean it. I was kidding around.’

CORIN But as you said, this is a death cult.

JOHN I know. But this is the point is that I suppose if we believed we could get them in front of the courts, and the courts would actually get those charges to stick. I’m sure the authorities would want to do that, because that’s the very questions I’ve asked those who might be dealing with these matters. You know, why can’t we simply arrest some of these people? But as we saw in Australia, as we saw in Canada, as we saw in France, all of these people have been known to the authorities. They are not new. These people are on watch lists and being observed. My simple point about these people and the now- growing group of up to 60 to 70 on a further watch list, what ISIL is saying to them is, ‘Come and fight for us, come and execute people, come and be part of this apocalypse that you’re talking about. But by the way, if you can’t, undertake a domestic terror action.’ And so I say to New Zealanders, of course there’s some risk with these soldiers that go off to train the Iraqi forces, but there is more risk to everyday New Zealanders by a stronger ISIL.

CORIN Just have to stop you there, Prime Minister. A lot of people don't believe that, though. They don’t believe the risk is as extreme as being made out. They point to the likes of the Paris shootings or the Sydney siege and they say, ‘Actually, these were lone wolf incidents. They were psychopaths.’

JOHN Okay, they don't want to believe—

CORIN You need to give them more evidence, don’t you?

JOHN Well, there is a lot of evidence there.

CORIN But you said yourself there’s only been one attack linked to ISIL.

JOHN Well, one I’m naming there. There’ll be a great many more. Look, in the end, you have tens of thousands of foreign fighters. They are fighting for these people who undertake the most barbaric and inhumane actions that any of us have seen. They live under a worldview which is so different and so remote from anything in New Zealand we can ever imagine. And all I can say to you is when you are Prime Minister, you are Prime Minister of the 4½ million New Zealanders; not just the men and women who might be in the uniform and who defend us so bravely in our Army and in our Navy and in our Air Force. I have a responsibility to try and do my best to keep—

CORIN And did you consider, when you made that decision, that going there - given the track record of Western intervention in the Middle East - and the very fact that this could radicalise people more by us going there could make the risk greater?

JOHN All the advice I've got is that it won't make the risk greater. There is obviously some risk. And I can't rule out that there are some risks if the actions that we take. But the long-standing and very firm advice from foreign affairs and others who understand this position is that a stronger ISIL presents a greater risk over time. And so in the end, if you look at what’s been happening. You’ve got 62 countries now involved in some form. Actually, the airstrikes and things are degrading ISIL. They were having an unrelenting march in taking territory. If we were to go out there and fight Iraq's battles for them, then I don’t think that that will succeed. And I’ve been very strongly of the view, actually, that it does take, fundamentally, diplomacy and actually good governance of Iraq. But we have to give the Iraqi government some resources, at least, to be able to stand up to these people.

CORIN Okay. Will you go there?

JOHN Yes, absolutely I will go.

CORIN When would you go?

JOHN Well, we won’t publically say. We’ll take journalists with us.

CORIN Do you think it’s safe enough for you to travel there?

JOHN Absolutely. For a start-off, I wouldn’t send NZ soldiers to any place I’m not prepared to go myself.

CORIN Has ISIS or ISIL -? Has there been any response? Has there been any chatter on social media? Are you getting any sense that they will respond with a video?

JOHN No. Look, at the end of the day, you never know what they’re going to do. And I’ve said before, you know, I'm fully of the view that it's quite possible- I mean, they run propaganda campaigns. They’ve run them, you know, against lots of different countries. And so can I rule out that there’ll be some sort of-?

CORIN But just to be clear, though, are you picking up any sense? Any chatter, any chat-room noise? There must be some response that you’re picking up?

JOHN Well, there has certainly been a sense about the Jihadi John guy that there was unrest within ISIL about that-

CORIN But specifically about New Zealand?

JOHN No, not about New Zealand.

CORIN So nothing about New Zealand?

JOHN No.

CORIN Can I ask you about- Tony Abbott has talked about setting up a unit, if you like, to combat ISIS propaganda. He effectively wants to promote Australian values to combat this and to try and get in front of the eyes of these guys presumably who are watching this stuff. Will we do that as well?

JOHN We may do, but you have to take a step back, I think, and say to yourself, ‘Okay, how many people want to be radicalised? How many people actually want to believe the teachings of ISIL and consume Dabiq as a magazine for 10 hours a day like these people do?’ And the answer is it’s a very small group, of course, but they are highly disillusioned, disenfranchised; they are people that feel completely separated from society. And there are a variety of reasons why they do that. But if we go out there and say, ‘These are the values that underpin our country,’ will that resonate with these people? I’m very suspect about that.

CORIN Well, there must be other, more sophisticated ways of doing it and targeting people, surely?

JOHN The Brits have had a programme they've been running with people who have actually either been groomed to be radicalised or have been radicalised. And they have been running a programme with people who have returned, cos they’ve had more returning foreign fighters. And we’re tapping into that.

CORIN Is this, in fact, actually a religious war? You are sending New Zealand troops to fight a religious war. This is a highly Islamic group, isn’t it?

JOHN Yes, it’s a highly Islamic group. I think there would be a lot of people- I mean, if you spoke to the UAE Foreign Minister, as I did a few weeks ago, he would say they utterly reject the association that this group has. Because-

CORIN But it can't be disassociated. It is an extreme form of Islam. You can’t say it’s not.

JOHN Okay, but what I'd say to you is there are a lot of world leaders I talk to who refuse and will never call these people Islamic State because their argument is they are neither Islamic nor a State. And as I said, if you spoke to someone like the UAE Foreign Minister, he would say the reason that ISIL can point to any kind of belief of the things they have, go back to one particular prophet back in 1200, and basically they say that is not a legitimate teaching of the Koran. But in the end, as he says, it’s for the clerics of the Islamic faith to actually go out there and dispel this.

CORIN I want to pick you up on that, because Tony Abbott in his speech last week pointed the finger at those clerics in Australia, presumably, and said they weren't saying enough.

JOHN Well, this is the argument of some leaders.

CORIN Well, are they saying enough in New Zealand?

JOHN Well, I think In New Zealand the Muslim community’s actually been exemplary. I think they are working very very hard. And we have a huge number of people in New Zealand who are Muslim.

CORIN Have you talked to that Muslim community about this?

JOHN I do talk- I haven’t on this particular-

CORIN You haven’t spoken to them about our intervention?

JOHN No, but we've offered to go and talk to them, and we're happy to go and talk to them, and we will. And, in fact, generally speaking, as I’ve said, I’ve gone out of my way to try and make sure that I reinforce what I believe, which is Muslim New Zealanders are good, law-abiding, decent, peaceful people.

CORIN Just to clarify there. So did you offer to brief them on the intervention?

JOHN Not brief them on the intervention, but I'm happy to go and talk to them about what we're doing. And I’m happy-

CORIN But surely you must’ve known this was going to put an awful lot of pressure and focus on that community.

JOHN Yes, ‘course it will. But in the end, I think the people that are radicalised in that group that we are associated with, they are not Muslims in the way that-

CORIN But this is the point, the whole point of this Atlantic article that seems to have shifted opinion globally, is that you can’t disassociate that.

JOHN Well, I don’t think that’s right. I mean, I think if you, again, go and talk to a lot of these other leaders and particularly people from the Middle East, people from the UAEs and the Saudis and the likes, they will make the case very strongly that this is a group of people who can point to a particular belief, and actually their worldview is so abhorrent that none of us can buy into that. But I’ll just go back to the fundamental point, in the end I’ve got a responsibility to keep New Zealanders safe. There’s either a reason I get all of this intelligence and security, or there isn’t.

CORIN Prime Minister, what would the consequences be for New Zealand re trade, re intelligence, re our foreign policy if you had stood up there with Tony Abbott yesterday and said, ‘We not going to do anything’?

JOHN Oh, I think they would have accepted that.

CORIN There would be no consequences?

JOHN No, I don’t think so. In the end, no one put pressure on us to go and take the steps that I took this week. I know there's been a lot of talk about me saying on the BBC that essentially New Zealand is part of a club. Actually, whether people like that or not, that club I mentioned is a very broad club.

CORIN You mentioned Five Eyes in the next sentence.

JOHN No, but okay, you can say whatever you like but just to flesh that out for a moment – why did we send nurses to Sierra Leone for Ebola? Not because we seriously think we’re going to get Ebola in New Zealand.

CORIN Why John Kerry say he didn't need to ask for New Zealand support?

JOHN Yeah, because, I think, in the end, this is the point. We send nurses to Sierra Leone not because we think we’re going to get Ebola. Yes, a) because we want to stop the spread of Ebola, because of the risks there, but because we are a good international citizen. We do our bit. And actually, when we did that, the Brits agreed that they would provide the services and facilities to air fly in our nurses if they got sick so we could emergency treatment to them. Other countries – not just necessarily New Zealand and Australia – other countries actually provided airlift capability in and out.

CORIN So what's wrong with New Zealand saying, ‘We share the same cultural values as Australia, Canada, the UK and the US,’ and say, ‘Look, we’ve got to put some skin in the game here’?

JOHN Well, because the point is there's nothing wrong with that. My point is simply this – New Zealand is part of a broader club of—

CORIN But you seem to be saying, ‘I don't want to be boxed in to saying, “It’s part of the club. Oh, we’re not part of the family.”’ What’s wrong with saying that?

JOHN Yeah, because my point is it's not as narrow as people would want to define that. What I’m saying to you is we run independent foreign policy in New Zealand. We make decisions in the best interests of New Zealanders. But because we run independent foreign policy doesn't mean we can abdicate our responsibilities to play our part, however small it might be, in a variety of different issues that the world faces. And the ridiculous thing is, in Parliament this week we’ve been subjected to people saying, ‘Oh, well, New Zealand won't make much difference, because it’s sending 106 people to Taji and there’s only 16 trainers. They are the very same political parties who say New Zealand should stand up to climate change and do things. And when I say, ‘We’re 0.14% of world emissions,’ they say it doesn't matter that we small. Well, actually, my view is that we do, to a certain degree, syndicate our risks. We have lots and lots of countries—

CORIN But it looks like you are doing the bare minimum to keep our partners happy and just enough not to upset too many people domestically, like you didn’t want to go with your convictions.

JOHN No, that is not correct, actually. What I did is what I think is absolutely right. In my mind, do nothing is not an option. In my mind, fighting Iraq's battles for them is not the right step to take. We don't have the airstrike capability. Actually what Andrew Little was talking about going out there building roads and hospitals, if we did that now, we would be putting our people into a place where they would be kidnapped, they would be hostages and they would be beheaded.

CORIN And why should people believe your assurances about that and about the two-year time limit? In New York last year you said to me and other journalists that we wouldn't go in with troops before the election.

JOHN Well, that’s actually—

CORIN And so things changed, granted, and you changed your position. So why box yourself in now to those set deadlines?

JOHN Well, for a start off, actually, I’d say a) things have changed dramatically. I mean—

CORIN Well, they’ll change again, won’t they?

JOHN ISIL 18 months ago was virtually not on the radar. So yes, they change. But actually, if you look at what I said back then— and play the video. Go and play it and have a look at it. But my memory of all of that was absolutely what's occurred. We are not sending our troops into combat. All of those questions that I think that came from you and other political journos were around sending the SAS in and deploying our people to fight combat troops. We're not doing that. I think New Zealand’s position is in about the right place. And yes, actually, if you want my view, I think Australia will do other things. They’ll have different framework to operate in. They may well certainly be there for a lot longer. But I actually don't want to see New Zealand stuck in Iraq training people for a decade or two. I think, in the end, we should play our part like we do in lots of international issues, but we come in and we go out.

CORIN You know some people will say this is being driven by the next election?

JOHN Of course people will say that, and they’ll say a million different things. Look, in the end—

CORIN But is it?

JOHN No. But when we got to the next election in 2017, people will point to numerous actions of this government. And some will be around ISIL and others will hopefully be RMA reform and economic growth and education reform and what we do in law and order. Every single thing you do as Prime Minister and the government does is up for scrutiny when you have an election.

CORIN And you’ll be judged on that decision.

JOHN Of course I will be, as I have in the last three elections.

CORIN Let's move on just quickly to Winston Peters.

JOHN Yeah.

CORIN Your reaction to him standing in Northland. He’s got a very good chance of winning this.

JOHN I don't think he has got any chance of winning it.

CORIN Why?

JOHN Look, this is all about Winston and Winston not feeling that relevant post the election. And so he’s going to go up there. But look, he hasn't stood there and actually New Zealand First hasn't stood a candidate for numerous different elections.

CORIN He’s spent half of his life there. He lives in a bach there up on the beach.

JOHN Yeah, okay, well, just where you live somewhere or you might go out fishing or whatever doesn't actually count as the fact that you have a plan for Northland. And the reality is that Northland is an electorate that needs the actions of a National-led government. They need roads up there.

CORIN Well, they needed that six years ago.

JOHN Yeah, and we've been building those roads up there in opposition to a whole lot of political parties. And in fact look at the last 12 months alone – 7500 jobs created. We’re the people that have been rolling broadband out there. We’re the government that wants to undertake things like RMA reform. If Winston Peters was to win Northland, you deliver a stronger Peter Dunne and less RMA reform and less reform in a lot of other areas.

CORIN But they get the most wily, experienced campaigner in Parliament who’s got bridges for Tauranga. I mean, he knows how to get things for people.

JOHN Well, when he's in government maybe. But even then his record is not that great, and the people of Tauranga threw him out. And when he stood against Simon Bridges and others, he did extremely poorly. Look, in the end, this is about Winston. We’re about the people of Northland. And our candidate, Mark Osborne, is going to get out that and reflect what National is doing in government. It’s not about the candidate in Northland. It’s about what you can do or are doing for Northland. Our record’s a good one there.

CORIN Prime Minister, John Key, thank you very much for your time on Q + A.

JOHN Thanks very much.

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