Lisa Owen interviews Philippa Howden-Chapman & Jess & Jason Holdaway

Lisa Owen: Well, child poverty has never been far from the headlines this year, and it's an issue we've talked about a lot on this programme. Just this week, the Children's Commissioner's annual poverty monitor showed that about a quarter of children are still living in poverty; about one in 10 in severe poverty. So for our final studio interview of the year, we wanted to focus on a few of those who are helping close the gaps. Professor Philippa Howden-Chapman is the woman, whose crusade to make Kiwi homes safer and healthier, has just won the Prime Minister's science prize. She joins me from Wellington. And Jason and Jess Holdaway run Frank Stationery, which for every item sold, it donates the same to a needy child. We were going to be joined by Corinna School principal Michelle Whiting, who helps lead a project in Porirua East that helps families buy notebook-style computers for their children, but, unfortunately, she's been taken ill so she can't join us this morning. But good morning to you all who are with us. Can I start with you, the Holdaways? Where did your idea come from?

Jason Holdaway: We saw the model that we run as a 'buy one, give one' model, so for every product we sell, we give the same product away to children in need in New Zealand. We had seen the same model overseas before and we just loved the idea of a business that gives back to people directly as well.

So, Jess, how much have you given away and who do you give it to?

Jess Holdaway: So far we have given away almost 6000 pieces of stationery, and at the moment, we have partnered with a school in Auckland — a decile 1A school that we currently donate to.

Fantastic. Now let's bring Professor Howden-Chapman into the conversation. By the way, congratulations on your award this week.

Philippa Howden-Chapman: Kia ora. Thank you very much.

You're welcome. What is the key thing in all of the research and work that you have done...? What is the key thing that you've found is wrong with most New Zealand homes?

Howden-Chapman: Well, they were built for another era, and they were built when people were at home all the time and could just keep that chill off the house. In fact, they don't have much thermal mass in them. They all need insulating and they need heating. And those are the two fundamentals. And then we found that they're not very well maintained. And just a small amount of money fixing up things like no rails on the back steps can make a huge drop in injuries, which are a major cause of ACC claims.

And so just in summary, what is...? Those things that you have identified about the fact that they are not very warm, they were built for a different era, what damage is that doing?

Howden-Chapman: Well, it damages the house. They get damp and cold and mouldy, but it also damages the people living in them, particularly babies, children and older people. It damages their lungs. If they have heart problems, it's harder for their circulatory system to work. And so people who live in cold houses, it's likely to aggravate their heart conditions, but for children, we get this terrible, terrible battery of respiratory infections and close contact infections because people have to crowd together in one room. So it's pretty shocking in a country that is as wealthy as we are; we can't make our houses warm enough for people to keep healthy in.

I really want to talk to you all about motivation for getting involved in these kinds of projects. So, Jess and Jason, you're giving away equal to what you're getting, in essence. Why not just give away a few cents in the dollar? Why did you go that extra mile?

Jason Holdaway: Well, I think it's something that's very tangible for the people buying our products. They can feel that each purchase is directly giving back. And we want to give back to kids as well. I mean, the thing we found out was that there's a whole lot of students in New Zealand that are living in poverty that are going out without the basic resources, so no schoolbooks, no backpacks. And so giving back directly that product to them is a really tangible way of helping them out.

But like I say, you could have limited. Lots of companies give a few cents. Do you accept, Jess, that everybody maybe needs to make a tiny little sacrifice so that we have a better country? Is that where you're coming from?

Jess Holdaway: I definitely think so. I think part of what we did when we started Frank is we didn't want giving to be an add-on to what we did. And so we wanted it to be really part of our core business and our ethos and everything that we are. And so when we first started, we debated shall we do it, percentage — shall we do this, and we kinda thought, 'You know what, this is who we are as a business. We're not just a profitable business. We're a business that gives back to children in need,' so it has to be built within our model that we give a large portion of what we get away. So that was the whole idea behind it. And even with our consumers, we want to give them an opportunity to become part of the solution really easily. So, obviously, everybody needs to buy stationery for school or uni. Everyone needs a planner. And why not do that through buying consciously and be purposeful about what you're purchasing to impact someone's life. So that's why we kinda thought one-for-one; really easy to understand and really tangible. And so you know when you use your book, a child is using their book. It's really nice.

Professor, I wanna bring you back in on this conversation, cos it's interesting. This is all voluntary what this company is doing, but you are wanting to bring in a compulsory warrant of fitness, and you're not asking for anything much here — you just want working power points, hot water, flush toilets. Are we really having to force that level of humanity in New Zealand through legislation?

Howden-Chapman: Well, you asked me why I'm doing things. I feel that I'm a lucky person in a lucky generation — you know, my father was a spitfire pilot; my mother went through the Blitz — and I had a free education. I'm using that to actually find knowledge to actually make a difference. And we've known for a long while that this rental housing where most poor children live is actually in very poor condition, and so, if, in fact, the carrots that the government's provided, like providing subsidised insulation, isn't making a difference, we think it's time to test out what it would be like if we brought together our health knowledge with the building science knowledge and saw what it did to the rental market. If we intimated that and less people made changes to a minimum standard, then we would bring in regulations, just as we do for a car warrant of fitness or when you go into a restaurant and you see it's got a hygiene certificate. These are not onerous, but they make a huge difference to the people who live in the house. They're buying services, housing services, and they should not be made sick because of it.

But in saying, yes, a landlord is a business, in essence, so here we have a business that's voluntarily doing things that they think will make our country a better place. Do we really, do you think, need to rely on regulation, or can we, over time, encourage people to involve themselves in this kind of thing on a voluntary basis? 'Have a conscience. You're running a business. There are certain standards that you should — or we'd like you to — meet.'

Howden-Chapman: Well, I think we need signals here. I mean, the government has brought in — successive governments and this current government — the Warm Up New Zealand programme, which I certainly hope will continue, which provides landlords with two-thirds subsidy on insulation, but very few of them have actually taken it up, and in some cases, if there's a person living in it who's on low income, they can get it 100% free. But there's a difference between the incentives for the landlord and the tenants there, and I think sometimes we need to bring together the government, whether at local level or central government level— needs to think about how the government can give clearer signals here. When you think that when a child gets sick, that's very distressing for the child, for the family, and it costs us all as taxpayer money when they go into hospital, maybe— and have chronic lung infections for their whole life. Wouldn't it be better to make sure that they don't get sick in the first place?

Which also brings us to the point that this week there's been this report that basically says child poverty hasn't moved, really. We've been stuck in a rut for about 20 years. Why don't you think we are motivated to do more, to make significant change?

Howden-Chapman: I think that's a very important question, and a lot of people, of course, do want to make change, but there are different interests about who's got to make the change, and I think that improving housing is the main thing that we could do to improve children's health. And I was listening to your programme before. One of the co-benefits of fixing up housing for children's health is that it actually reduces carbon emissions. So, this is one of the serious things that the minister mentioned that we need to do. So, if you fix up houses, you improve the health of children, more energy efficiency, you create jobs, and you also make a contribution to lowering carbon emissions. So we think that that's a win-win-win and makes rational sense to do, and that's why it's a very exciting area to work in, and we've got the economic figures to show that the benefits far exceed the cost of this kind of this kind of programme.

Jess and Jason, how do you think we get out of a rut? Because you've taken the step— Lots of people think about child poverty, lots of people think it's a bad thing, but they don't actually do anything. So, how do we get out of the rut? How do we motivate people?

Jason Holdaway: Well, I think we need to decide, as people, what's important to us, rather than expecting other people to make all the change for us, like the government or whatever else is pushed on us. I think if we want our kids to be healthy and we want our kids to have a good education and a good upbringing, we need to take the responsibility for that ourselves, and so that's what we feel that we're doing with Frank.

Jess, who do you think is responsible for solving the problem? I mean, Jason's just said, 'Don't just rely on the government,' basically.

Jess Holdaway: Yeah. I mean, I think, obviously, we're all people who live in New Zealand, and we're all responsible for taking care of our backyard, and so I feel, you know, children are at the mercy of adults around them, including us, and I think, 'Why not make good decisions?' And potentially there are some adults making bad decisions, but why not be the people who actually make good decisions on behalf of the children who are also at the mercy of the adults around them. So, I do think it's really— It is about the government doing things, but also, as business owners, it's about thinking of creative ways to solve social problems, to say, 'This is what I'm good at — I'm good at business, I'm good at design, I'm good at—' whatever your craft is, and actually going, 'What's a creative way that I can actually impact people doing that?'

So, do you think things are getting better, people are doing that? You're doing that, but do you think, on the whole, that it is getting better?

Jess Holdaway: I think people are becoming more socially aware. I think there's sort of a movement — especially, I think, in our age — toward becoming socially conscious. And, unfortunately, from the child poverty report that came out, there isn't much improvement. And I think there's a few barriers because of that. So, there's mindsets about what people in poverty actually do, and there's sort of assumptions that need to be broken down. There's also the other side of, 'What can I actually do? Sure, you know, I pay my tax, and the government should really take care of it.' But there's sort of a barrier of, 'What can I actually do in my daily life that's gonna help people living in poverty?' And that's why I think businesses that are socially skewed toward helping social problems are amazing, because it gives people a really small, easy opportunity to make a difference in their backyard, without having to give up everything.

OK. Thank you so much for joining us this morning to Professor Philippa Howden-Chapman in Wellington, and thank you for Frank Stationery for joining us too.

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