Panel Discussions
Hosted By Susan Wood

In response to Lain Jager interview

SUSAN WOOD
Welcome back to the panel. Bryce Edwards, Fran O’Sullivan and Matt McCarten. Fran, it’s very complicated listening to Lain Jager, isn’t it, doing business in China?

FRAN O’SULLIVAN - NZ Herald Columnist
Yeah, doing business in China is complicated, but I have to say ZESPRI knew damn well what was going on. The warning signs were there. They took legal advice. They could have brought this to a head. They allowed a double invoicing system to go ahead.

SUSAN Which is apparently very common, but he couldn’t tell me where else it was actually done.

FRAN Well, actually, it’s not that common. It’s not that common for NZ companies to indulge in it. Maybe elsewhere. But if you go and talk to someone like Mainfreight. Don Braid works all around the world. Of course people try things on, but sensible companies and corporations that want to look after their reputation make jolly clear that they don’t go down that route.

SUSAN Cost ZESPRI, Matt, $15 million, including legal fees. What’s the cost to reputation?

MATT McCARTEN - National Secretary, Unite Union
Oh, a lot, but I think that the Chinese are going to get the main blame. I think most people know that in China, you’ve got to pay money, and there’s companies getting pinged all the time, and these state officials, these Communist Party heads are going to jail with tens of millions of dollars in their bank accounts. Gee, that didn’t come from a wage. So everyone knows. But I think what ZESPRI- And I think NZ companies come from a culture where we’re not corrupt-

FRAN Yeah, but it’s against the law for our companies to do that. It’s against the law here. This is the point.

MATT Yes, I know that, but there’s a culture in NZ handshakes. Anyone who knows the Chinese, right, it’s not like that.

FRAN I think the game’s changed quite a lot for our major companies, and we’ve just got to be very careful. This is a single-desk monopoly exporter. It carried the NZ name. It’s a creature of statute. It’s not just any old private company, and that is why it’s important to flush this out.

DR BRYCE EDWARDS - Political Scientist
And it’s good having CEOs, exporting CEOs under the microscope and scrutinised today like this, because there’s a perception which is possibly a reality amongst the public that there’s a unhealthy culture sort of happening in the private sector. We saw a Colmar Brunton poll come out a few weeks ago that said 3 per cent of New Zealanders paid a bribe in NZ. It’s extraordinary.

SUSAN I find that amazing.

BRYCE It is, it is. So, you know, these exporting companies are having an impact on the reputations of New Zealanders, and so it’s good to have this focus. And it’s not just ZESPRI, of course, with this corruption. It’s Fonterra with the melamine, with the [former] head of Fonterra coming out recently and telling New Zealanders that they shouldn’t ever trust the Chinese.

SUSAN Sir Henry van der Hayden. He retracted those comments.

BRYCE Yes, but it’s damaging for us as New Zealanders, so, you know, we need to put the focus on the private sector.

MATT I differ slightly. I think it won’t make any difference to ZESPRI or to Fonterra. They are single-desk. They are the most successful.

FRAN No, I don’t think it will make any difference.

MATT On every measure, they deliver a better price to the farmers.

FRAN But they’re very lucky not to actually face an inquiry here, and it’s because they are so big, they are so central to the economy. Because, you know, you can’t be doing this, and it is against our own legal framework for our companies to be doing these sorts of things.

SUSAN Well, Lain Jager was very keen to put it into history.

FRAN Well, absolutely. Things have moved it.

MATT It was his first line.

FRAN Things have moved on, because in NZ, things always do move on, and accountability is very rarely shafted home. It wasn’t shafted home with Fonterra; it won’t be here. Who is going to carry the flag for this in NZ, the can?

SUSAN Yes, exactly. Two men in prison in China for it.

FRAN Wasn’t for the BNZ collapse, the DFC, everything. You know, no one carries the can in NZ.

SUSAN Very good point. We’ll leave it there, panel, thank you.

ENDS

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