Q+A: Corin Dann interviews Leon Panetta
Q+A: Corin Dann interviews Leon Panetta
US Secretary of Defence shows commitment
to NZ: “I mean, my approach to this as Secretary of
Defence is whatever we can do to try to help New Zealand
develop its capabilities and build a stronger friendship,
I’m prepared to do.”
US Secretary of Defence
raises prospect of US troops being stationed in New Zealand:
“If New Zealand feels that that’s something New Zealand
would support or want, that’s something I think that would
be very helpful.”
And opens the door to New
Zealand re-entering ANZUS: “If New Zealand is prepared to
make revisions for the future that will help strengthen our
relationship, we will work together to try to achieve that
goal.”
Wants further joint training and
exercises to build New Zealand’s military capability:
“So that you will be in a better position to provide not
only for your own security, but help us in providing for the
Asia-Pacific region.”
“No matter what the
challenge is, we can trust each other to do the right thing;
that’s the most important thing I get [from the NZ-US
relationship]”
Speaks of new era in NZ-US
relations and wanting to get closer: “Every relationship
that is close is one that’s based on trust, and that’s
what we have with the people of New Zealand.”
Getting rid of “silly limitations” between the
countries has been a “step in the right direction” and
he can only see things getting better.
China has
“an important role” in making the Asia-Pacific a
prosperous and peaceful region, says US will “engage”
with them, not contain them.
Territorial disputes
such as those over Senkaka/ Diaoyu Islands “could be real
trouble” for Pacific nations, advises New Zealand to stay
out of territorial disputes.
On our role and
security concerns in Afghanistan: “New Zealand knows
better than any other country that war is hell. You pay a
price…”
Says New Zealand sacrifices,
including the recent deaths of five soldiers, “have paid
off” in a more secure and self-governing Afghanistan.
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Q + A
CORIN DANN
INTERVIEWS LEON PANETTA
GREG He’s been
a congressman, reviewed America’s war in Iraq and run the
CIA, overseeing the mission to kill Osama bin Laden. He’s
now US Secretary of Defence, the deputy commander-in-chief
of the mighty American military. Leon Panetta flew in
preaching a new era in US-NZ relations. It’s the first
time in 30 years a US Secretary of Defence has visited our
shores, the last being Caspar Weinburger back in 1982, yet
another sign of the thaw between Washington and
Wellington. But it also reinforces America’s decision
this year to make the Pacific its number one foreign policy
priority. But why is America so keen to be pals again?
What do they want, and what are the biggest risks facing the
world today? In his only New Zealand interview, he spoke
to political editor Corin Dann.
CORIN If I could
begin with New Zealand’s relationship with the United
States? You made some policy changes yesterday. It
didn’t seem as though there was any reciprocal requirement
on New Zealand. Does the United States have any
expectation now that it’s changed the ban, in particular,
on those ship visits to US ports?
LEON PANETTA – US Defence Secretary
Well, you know, I think the
nature of our friendship and partnership is that it is a
two-way street. The fact is that New Zealand has deployed
forces to Afghanistan and carried on a very important
mission that’s a part of a larger mission there. The
fact is we have fought and bled together over the years,
both of our countries, going back to World War I. And
today what we’re doing is trying to make sure that we
build up a new era in the relationship between the United
States and New Zealand. And every relationship that is
close is one that’s based on trust, and that’s what we
have with people of New Zealand. And it’s that
relationship of trust that no matter what the crisis is, no
matter what the challenge is that we can trust each other to
be able to do the right thing, and that, I think, probably
that’s the most important thing I get back in this
relationship.
CORIN
But no push from the United States for New Zealand
to change its anti-nuclear stance. Have attitudes changed
in the United States to that stance? Is it not seen as
such a problem any more?
LEON
I think, you know, what I
sense is that New Zealand and the United States as we
establish this kind of new era of cooperation that we’re
going to continue to move forward step by step and that— I
think our hope is that, you know, by allowing your ships to
come into our ports, which we announced yesterday, allowing
our people to be able to engage with one another, getting
rid of some of the silly limitations that were in place is a
real step in the right direction. And I can only see the
relationship getting better from this point on.
CORIN Yes, you did
mention yesterday about the one step at a time when asked
about Coastguard visits, so is that something that’s still
a goal? Does it remain a goal that we can get to a point
where we go back, for example, into ANZUS or that type of
arrangement?
LEON
Well, I mean, I’d like to see our relationship
get stronger and better in the future, and I think both
sides want to see that happen. Obviously, we want to do it
in a way that, you know, both countries can support.
I’ve got to always be attuned to the navy and making sure
that I accommodate their concerns, and I think New Zealand
has to, you know, make sure that the country supports what
steps it takes. But I think both of us— Both of the
leadership meetings that I’ve had with your defence
minister and prime minister – I get a sense that we’re
both headed in the same direction, and that’s a good
thing.
CORIN Putting the
ship issue aside, is there perhaps the potential for New
Zealand one day to host US marines in that same way,
perhaps, that Australia and the Philippines might be in the
future?
LEON
Well, you know, I think one of the things that was
made clear to me by the Defence Minister is the interest in
developing amphibious capability here with the New Zealand
forces. And we certainly can help provide assistance in
that. The marines are among the best in terms of that
capability. And I would hope that, you know, we could
develop an approach where we could continue to do exercises,
continue to provide training and assistance, continue to
provide our expertise and try to build up New Zealand’s
capabilities so that you will be in a better position to be
able to provide not only for your own security but help us
in providing for the security of the Asia-Pacific region.
CORIN And
could that mean a presence of United States forces here
helping build that capacity, in other words, stationed in
some way here to help build that up?
LEON
I think, I mean, if New
Zealand feels that that’s something that they would
support and want, we certainly are more than ready to engage
them in that kind of relationship. I think it would be
very helpful. We do exercises together. As I said,
we’ve fought and bled together, so I think whatever it
is— I mean, my approach to this as Secretary of Defence is
whatever we can do to try to help New Zealand develop its
capabilities and build a stronger friendship, I’m prepared
to do.
CORIN
Just finally on the relationship – the ANZUS
agreement. Is the wish or the goal of the United States at
all to see that New Zealand re-enters that agreement?
LEON Well, you
know, as I said, you know, let’s do this step by step.
And, ultimately, if New Zealand is prepared to make
revisions for the future that will help strengthen our
relationship, we will work together to try to achieve that
goal.
CORIN You said –
I think it was in Italy last year – that, ‘In the
Pacific we’re concerned about China.’ How concerned
are you?
LEON
You know, as a Pacific power, just like New Zealand
is a Pacific nation, I think we share the same concern. We
want a prosperous region; we want a secure region. This is
an area that really does represent the future. I mean, you
know, as I go to different nations in the Pacific, what I
see is countries that are rapidly improving their economies,
rapidly improving the situation within their societies,
rapidly engaging in trade and commerce. And all of that is
really a good sign for where this region can be headed.
And I think— The one thing I stressed in my trip to China
was that it’s in China’s interest as well. And
interestingly enough, the leadership in China mentioned the
fact that, you know, as we rebalance the Pacific that it’s
important that that effort be not just on the military side,
but on the diplomatic side, on the economic side, on the
developmental side as well as on the military side, because
I think they do recognise as well that they have to play an
important role if this area is, in fact, going to be
prosperous and secure for the future.
CORIN So where does
New Zealand fit in that? I mean, analysts have been
suggesting that the increased interest of the US in New
Zealand, perhaps, in the Pacific is because of a need to
contain China. Is that a fair assessment?
LEON No. As a
matter of fact, the message I delivered to China is that the
purpose of the rebalance is not to contain China. It’s
to engage China in a broader role in terms of dealing with
the Pacific. I mean, the territorial problems that we’re
facing right now are a good example. That can be, you
know— if nations can’t resolve that, that could be real
trouble in this region. If on the other hand we develop a
process, a format, you know, for arbitration, for mediation,
for resolving these issues, that could really help all
countries in the Pacific region.
CORIN Just finally
on that – does that create a problem, though, because the
reports today, for example, in the New Zealand media
suggesting China would like to think that it would have New
Zealand’s support in that dispute, for example, the island
dispute, whereas the US, for example, obviously has an
alliance with Japan. So does that create a problem for
countries like New Zealand when it’s trying to have
relations with both superpowers?
LEON
I guess my advice to New
Zealand would be to in many ways follow our example, which
is basically to say we don’t take positions with regards
to territorial disputes. But the one thing we do urge is
that countries find a way to resolve those differences
peacefully and not engage in the kind of provocative acts
that could result in conflict or violence.
CORIN If I could
move on to Afghanistan? Is the US comfortable with the
timetable for New Zealand’s withdrawal from the Bamyan
province?
LEON
You know, New Zealand’s done a great job in
Bamyan province. You know, it’s been one of the areas
where we successfully have made the transition to Afghan
security and governance. A lot of that is due to the great
efforts of New Zealand. And by the way, I really pay
tribute to the New Zealand forces and they’ve paid a price
with those that have lost their lives, but it’s a price
that I think has been done in order to try to achieve the
goal in Afghanistan, which is to have an Afghanistan that
can secure and govern itself. So, yeah, I think, you know,
New Zealand has set a timetable that I think is in line with
completing its mission. And that is in line with the
larger plan that we have to complete our transition by the
end of 2014.
CORIN
You mentioned the surge yesterday – that the
surge had finished. Has it been successful, because there
may be New Zealanders thinking we’ve just lost five
soldiers in August in the Bamyan province, which was
supposed to be a slightly more benign area, there’s lots
of attacks – blue-green attacks they call them – and
attacks on your bases too with your jet planes. So has
that surge been successful?
LEON
You know, look, we’re in a
war, and New Zealand knows better than any other country
that war is hell and you pay a price when you engage in
war. But the fact is that the sacrifices that have been
made have, in fact, paid off in terms of creating a better
course for Afghanistan, and then we’ll have an enduring
presence there in which we’ll continue to be there to make
sure that all of the gains and all of the successes will
continue to be in place for the future.
CORIN In terms of
the global picture, in terms of threats – global threats
– what are the areas you see as most dangerous at the
moment?
LEON
Well, you know, I was telling somebody, you know,
even as we draw down after 10 years of war and, you know, we
brought the war in Iraq to a conclusion, hopefully we’ll
draw down in the war in Afghanistan and, you know, we
engaged in Libya, brought down Gaddafi and terrorism – the
war on terrorism has had some great successes as well –
but we’re still a country that faces huge threats in the
world. We face the threat from North Korea in this region
and the potential, you know, that they could engage in
provocative behaviour that could very well result in war.
We face the problem from Iran and the fact that they might
try to obtain a nuclear capability as well.
CORIN Are you
worried, for example, that Israel would step in there? I
mean, there’s been a lot of sabre rattling from their
administration.
LEON
Well, it’s a volatile
region, the Middle East, now. And between Iran, what’s
happening in Syria, what’s happening in the Middle East
generally in terms of the turmoil that we’ve seen, it is a
volatile area, and it’s one we’re concerned about.
We’re concerned about cyberwarfare, which is a whole new
area of technological warfare in the future. We’re
concerned about, you know, how we do deal with rising powers
like China, like India, like Brazil so that they can be part
of the international family as opposed to being outliers.
And so there’s a series of threats that we continue to
confront in today’s world. And to add to that, we
continue to fight the war on terrorism, we’re fighting in
Yemen, we’re fighting in Somalia, in North Africa, we
continue to be at war in Afghanistan. And when you put all
of that together, the countries of the world have got to be
vigilant about dealing with those threats. This is still
a— You know, this is no longer a world in which you face
just one enemy or one superpower. What we’re facing is
an array of threats in which we’re going to have to be
flexible and agile and work together in alliances to be
about to confront and provide security for the world.
CORIN Mr Secretary,
thank you very much for your time.
LEON
Thank you very much. Nice
to be with you.
CORIN
Thank you.
ENDS