Government Body Looking at Market for All Water

The Government's Land and Water Forum is looking at a market for all water.

Forum chairman, Alistair Bisley, confirmed today on TV3's, "The Nation" that a market was one of the options being considered in its next report due by the end of the year.

The Forum brings together over 80 water users including power companies, Fonterra, farmers, iwi and recreation and conservation organisations.

Its task is to reach a consensus on water policy for the Government.

Mr Bisley said one of those options was having a look at market mechanisms of various kinds.

"If you’ve got more water than you need given the way your business has evolved you might want to be able to transfer it to someone else," he said.
"So one of the questions is, would it be better to do that, to make transferring water among various players easier?

"And is one of the ways you could do that allowing them to buy and sell, not the water itself if you like, but the right.

"We're looking at a range of things, but one of them is definitely whether or not you need to use pricing mechanisms to allow it to be distributed more dynamically, to move to its best use over time."

A former Whanganui Iwi representative on the Forum, Nancy Tuaine, said the mixed ownership process for asset sales had added urgency to the water debate for Maori.
But she said it was broader than just thinking about money. And she said the Forum had provided an oppurtunity for discussion about the broader issues --- including the market.
"We've been going since 2008 in building that process where we're all sitting at the table, to share each other's aspirations in relation to water, but also to have the hard discussions<" she said.

"But that sharing of our particular aspirations has been critical in this process and that’s something that doesn’t necessarily happen as the nation. We don’t share enough about what water means to us, and why we are having to have this grievance heard through those processes."

'THE NATION'
ALISTAIR BISLEY
Interviewed by RACHEL SMALLEY

Rachel Your with The Nation and we're talking about water rights. Alistair Bisley is the Chair of the Land & Water Forum. It's tasked with finding answer to the issue. Welcome to the programme Mr Bisley. Thanks so much for joining us.

Can you explain to us in the first instance if you like what's led the government to ultimately take the step to look at how water is allocated.

Alistair Bisley – Land & Water Forum Chairman
Well I guess what the government gave us in the first instance Rachel was a very broad mandate. They said tell us about how you think we should produce a reform in water management, and that involved looking at a whole lot of things including water quality, including how you allocate it, and including how you take decisions about both of those things. And so our first report was a sort of broad blueprint, and the second one dealt with the issue of setting national bottom line objectives and setting more precise objectives in catchments, with the collaboration of local communities, in order to make sure that it was used properly. And the next part of our report is about tools. What the tools are for managing catchments in a dynamic way, and they include the question of allocation.

Rachel And that’s what your third report is at the moment. Is that right? Looking at allocation.

Alistair So the third report is going to be about. It's going to be about tools. How do you get win wins in managing water better? And so that both the economy and the environment can benefit. And also how are you going to allocate it. Because up until now we've mostly allocated water by a system which is known as first in first served, and that’s okay when you’ve got plenty of it, and when it's not under stress. But as more and more of us, you know as we've used it more and more in New Zealand, because there are more of us, or because we need more, because agriculture is intensifying and we need more for stock water or to irrigate land, or because we're washing the car, because we're drinking it. As use presses more and more in the water bodies you have to think about whether first in first served works any more, and whether there are better ways of doing it. And in our first report we said you need to have a bigger toolbox, and we should maybe look at what the various options might be.

Rachel So will one of those options potentially be Mr Bisley putting a price on water?

Alistair Well one of those options is having a look at market mechanisms of various kinds. For example, if you’ve got more water than you need given the way your business has evolved you might want to be able to transfer it to someone else, and at the moment there are some ways you can do it, but it's rather cumbersome. So one of the questions is, would it be better to do that, to make transferring water among various players easier? And is one of the ways you could do that allowing them to buy and sell, not the water itself if you like, but the right.

Rachel So a tradable market in essence is what you're talking about?

Alistair Can trading be part of the way we manage water in New Zealand, and if so where?

Rachel And the other option I would imagine would be having a body that allocated water?

Alistair The other option is various means of doing it through bureaucratic mechanisms you know. Do you compare a whole range of uses and try and decide which are better, or do you look at consents when they need to be renewed. So we're looking at a range of things, but one of them is definitely whether or not you need to use pricing mechanisms to allow it to be distributed more dynamically, to move to its best use over time.

Rachel If you did have a tradable market, who would be in essence the recipient of any revenue?

Alistair Well that’s a very good question and it depends what the market's in and it depends where it is. So what I don’t want to do is to suggest where we're going to come out, because we've got a few months to go I'm glad to say, and we're working a lot of stuff through, and I'm not sure that there's going to be a single answer either. I'm not sure that there's going to be necessarily a single regime which goes across the whole country. There's a lot of stuff to work out yet before I could give an accurate answer to that question.

Rachel Mr Bisley the government has said often this week, many times, that no one owns water, yet we see Regional Councils allocated chiefly through you know the resource consent process. Is it slightly disingenuous to suggest that no one owns water, when in essence the government really does control that process at the moment?

Alistair Well I think there's a big difference between owning something in the sense that it's yours and it's yours forever, and owning it in the sense that you have for a period of time a right to take it, or a right to use it. So I actually think there is quite an important distinction there, and it's worth bearing it very much in mind.

Rachel Do you think with your knowledge and your expertise now in the issue of water, do you think there needs to be a legal clarification of water rights before our energy companies are to be partially sold?

Alistair Well my job is to reach consensuses in the Land & Water Forum, and not to give a general commentary on energy companies about which I'm not in a good position to speak. But I do think that what is important is that we find ways in which we can manage this extremely important resource in a way which does good for the economy and which also does good for the environment. And that does mean using it efficiently, and having a more dynamic system than we currently do, I think is quite important.

Rachel Alright Alistair Bisley from the Land & Water Forum, very much appreciate your time this morning, thank you.

'THE NATION'
NANCY TUAINE
Interviewed by RACHEL SMALLEY

Rachel Now Nancy Tuaine is a former Trustee of the Land & Water Forum, represent Iwi on that four person panel. She joins us now from Whanganui. Kio or Miss Tuaine thank you for joining us.

Explain to me if you will why water really is so central to the identity of Iwi.

Nancy Tuaine – Former Iwi Representative
Oh well I can talk from our experience really cos it's what I know, and if I reflect back on our history, our people have continued for centuries to live beside our awa. It has been for us our food source, our healer, our sustenance as an iwi. It has continued to support our life for centuries. So for us it's a critical part of who we are as a people.

Rachel So what we see before the tribunal at the moment, is that about ownership, or is it about guardianship?

Nancy I can't represent the stories that are before the Tribunal, but I can say our opportunity as an iwi when we went before the Tribunal in 1994, was about sharing our story, our relationship, and seeking recognition that that relationship has value, and that our part in ensuring that our river, the health and wellbeing of our river is maintained. The role that we play in that is critical given we continue to live beside it and with it.

Rachel If Maori were to gain water rights to some degree what could they do with those rights?

Nancy I think if you look at the context and the essence of what our people have been seeking is a right to have a say in decision making, a right to decide the health and wellbeing needs of the river alongside its community. So it's about working with the community to discuss what those rights and interests are, and working through what that means as communities. And I think that’s distinctive in terms of what each iwi and each community has with their particular water body. I don’t think that you can have a general view about that for the whole nation.

Rachel Some would suggest this is about money, not mana. What do you say to those people?

Nancy I think at times when money is at question, then it becomes about that, because that’s the topic of discussion. It's not necessarily the purpose for why these people are having their claims addressed. Many of our iwi have been lining up to be heard as part of the Tribunal process, and some have. And so we're all at different stages. The fact that the mixed ownership model has come on to the scene means for some there's a sense of urgency around that, and that is based on providing shares. So there is a component of that that has money. So I think it's a bit broader than just thinking that it's about money, and it needs to be understood in its full context. And unfortunately as a nation we haven’t shared that context enough. We haven’t within our own communities sought to understand each other, and the Tribunal is about reconciliation and so we have to give these iwi their particular time and opportunity to be heard on this kaupapa.

Rachel It's certainly becoming a divisive issue for the nation. It's also though Nancy quite divisive it seems among Maori, and you must mentioned there that there are different perspectives, people are at different stages. Iwi are at different stages. Of what you’ve seen that’s going on at the Tribunal, and we're talking here about the Mana Party and the Maori Party, the Iwi Leadership Group, you know the Maori Council, there are many different perspectives here. Are you slightly worried this is becoming a very divisive issue, even just among Maori?

Nancy Yeah, unfortunately for us it becomes divisive when it gets played out through the media. We don’t necessarily have a nation that has the full context of what those discussions are, and so it becomes divisive when we start to buy into the different discussions, rather than seeing it just as part of a journey, and that everybody's on a different place in that journey at a different stage in that journey. Definitely I see the Land & Water Forum as being one of the mechanisms that I've participated in, that has been something that can bring us together. But what it's done is it's provided an opportunity for discussion. We've been going since 2008 in building that process where we're all sitting at the table, to share each other's aspirations in relation to water, but also to have the hard discussions. But that sharing of our particular aspirations has been critical in this process and that’s something that doesn’t necessarily happen as the nation. We don’t share enough about what water means to us, and why we are having to have this grievance heard through those processes.

Rachel What's the best way then Nancy to move this forward. You know is it in the Tribunal, is it in the Prime Minister's office around the table. How do you progress from this?

Nancy I think everybody deserves their time before the Tribunal because as I've seen from our Kuia and Kaumatua gave them an opportunity to actually have their say in a way that wasn't going to be judged by anybody, in terms of whether or not they took that for fact. It was accepted and our findings were made. So I think if we can sit down as nations in terms of tribes and work through that with a willing partner, and I think that’s key to us moving forward. There's always got to be willingness, there's gotta be good leadership, and there's gotta be a common aspiration. And sometimes we jump to things when we haven’t worked through what that process means. So let's refine our process, get back to having a good conversation about it I think.

Rachel Alright Nancy Tuaine, we have to leave it there, but thank you very much for your time this morning.

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