Q+A: Shane Taurima interviews Amy Adams
Q+A: Shane Taurima interviews Amy
Adams
Environment Minister Amy Adams says
there’s been “some” progress from Rio, but probably
not as much as they’d like in some areas.
On the
WWF report into New Zealand’s failure: “It’s fairly
one-sided… some of the information in there is
wrong.”
Adams says New Zealand received accolades
at the conference for the work we’ve done with our
fisheries system, with our management of natural resources
and with our emissions trading scheme.
Admits New
Zealand has had an increase in emissions, but is playing it
down: “But actually considerably less than the rest of the
world has seen and over a time of significant population
growth.”
Adams believes we can build more roads,
have more cows and drill more, “They’re sustainable as
long as we’re doing them in a way that’s environmentally
responsible.”
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Q
+ A
SHANE TAURIMA INTERVIEWS AMY
ADAMS
GREG
The biggest meeting the United Nations has ever
held, the Rio+20 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, has
finished. Activist and actor Lucy Lawless was there,
alongside high-profile celebrities like Sir Paul McCartney,
Penelope Cruz and Jude Law. We’ll get her assessment
soon, but first Shane Taurima spoke with Conservation
Minister Amy Adams before she left Rio. Wellington
schoolgirl Brittany Trilford had stood before world leaders
and asked them to do the right thing for her children and
her grandchildren. And Shane started by asking the
Minister whether those world leaders had
listened.
AMY ADAMS – Environment
Minister
Well, first of
all, let me say that I think Brittany did an amazing job up
there. For a young New Zealander to be on that world stage
speaking so clearly and so passionately, it was really a
proud moment for all New Zealanders here. She had a pretty
strong message to the conference, and I think, you know, she
had a clear message she wanted to deliver. The reality is,
of course, with these things that there’s never going to
be a single conference that simply solves these problems for
all time. The conference has certainly made some
progress. Maybe not as much as we might like in some
areas, but, look, it’s a step forward, and I would rather
see all countries moving in the right direction than a
complete breakdown of talks, and certainly to see consensus
in the outcome document that we have can only be regarded as
a good thing.
SHANE
But it appears at home here that little has been
achieved when we hear that Greenpeace has described the
conference as an ‘epic failure’. Nick Clegg says
he’s disappointed, but you’re saying that progress is
being made. Who is right?
AMY
Well, I mean, I have my
view; they have theirs. The feeling here amongst most of
the delegations is that, look, it’s modest, but it’s
progress. And, you know, I don’t want to oversell it,
but you can’t escape the fact that we have made some gains
in some of the areas that certainly are important to New
Zealand, particularly around oceans management. We’re
very pleased to see that. We would have liked to see
perhaps some stronger language on fossil fuel subsidy
reform, which New Zealand has been very widely commended for
here for our strong leadership position on. But even in
that regard, the fact that there is now text in a UN
consensus document talking about the need to be considering
and thinking about fossil fuel subsidy reform, it is a step
in the right direction. And these issues – it’s about
playing a long
game.
SHANE You
were urging other countries at the summit to cut their
subsidies for fossil fuels. Why is
that?
AMY
Well, fossil fuel subsidy reform is something that
New Zealand, as I said, has been spearheading, and we’re
spearheading it because there’s around US$400 billion to
US$600 billion every year that goes into subsidising fossil
fuels. Now, that money could be far better spent often on
better-achieving sustainable development programmes. There
are some countries now who are spending more on fossil fuel
subsidies than they spend on health or education. But the
really important thing is that if we were to remove fossil
fuel subsidies over time, we could see 10% of global
emissions wiped out of our environment. Now, New Zealand
is a pretty small player. We know that our own emissions
are only 0.02%, so what we do at home will make a small
difference – very little difference – but we have to do
it. But if we can encourage that sort of worldwide change
and have an impact on removing up to 10% of global
emissions, that’s when we start to make a real difference
in the world. New Zealand has been leading it. We have
been supported by a large number of like-minded countries.
And while the battle is a long way from won, we’ve made
some progress here, and it’s a battle that we will
continue to fight.
SHANE I just wonder,
though, if our position is a bit rich, coming from a country
that wants to dramatically increase its exports of fossil
fuels.
AMY
No, I don’t think so. I mean, we’re very
clear that we have a pricing mechanism around the use of
fossil fuels. This is not about banning oil. We’re
certainly not saying that the world should give up fossil
fuels. What we are saying is that we shouldn’t distort the
market, and by doing that, what we are— if you’re
distorting the market and subsidising fossil fuels, then
what you are doing is putting up real barriers to the
transition to renewable energy. So we’re encouraging
moves to renewables, and the best way we can do that is to
remove the subsidies for fossil
fuels.
SHANE
What about our own position and our own record?
Because the World Wildlife Fund report, as an example, says
we’ve failed – greenhouse gas emissions are up, more
species are being lost and rivers are dirtier than
ever.
AMY
Well, I mean, I’ve made my comments around that
report, but my view is that it’s fairly one-sided. It
picks and chooses how it reports. Some of the information
in there is wrong, some is outdated. But I think the
important thing is to put New Zealand’s position in the
international context. I’ll be absolutely up front that
I think New Zealand doesn’t claim to have solved all the
problems. We still have work to do, particularly around
freshwater management. But what I think you can’t escape
is that, actually, we have made incredible progress. And
the number of times New Zealand has received accolades here
for the work we’ve done with our fisheries system, with
our management of natural resources and with our emissions
trading scheme, which let’s not forget is the first in the
world – anywhere in the world – to cover all sectors and
all gases. That’s a tremendous achievement. Yes, we
have had an increase in emissions, but actually considerably
less than the rest of the world has seen and over a time of
significant population growth. So these are difficult
issues. No one’s pretending that we’ve got them
solved.
SHANE But another
recent report, the Pure Advantage report, says your
government doesn’t have a good record. We used to lead
the way with our environmental policies, we slipped to
seventh in 2008 when your government took over, and we’re
now at 14th. Hardly a good record.
AMY
Well, actually, I think
what the Pure Advantage report is broadly talking about is
the need to embrace the greening of our economy, and we
agree with that. You know, we commissioned our own green
growth advisory group to look at the ways the government can
actively pursue green growth, and we’ve been talking a lot
about the fact that we have to be as focused on how we grow
as on how much we grow. And my government certainly
endorses that, and we’re taking the recommendations of our
green growth advisory report very seriously and working
through them now.
SHANE
I wonder about our commitment to a green economy
when your government is all about more roads, more cows and
more drilling.
AMY
What my government is
all about, Shane, is more economic growth, more jobs, better
opportunities for New Zealanders. And, actually, the
outcome document here in Rio that we’re talking about, if
you read through it from end to end, is as much about the
need for countries to be economically growing, to be
providing jobs, to be looking for opportunities, to be
developing their opportunities, to be providing income and
social services. And, actually, the point is made
repeatedly here in Rio and repeatedly in the outcome
document that it can no more be the economy at the expense
of the environment as it can be the environment at the
expense of the economy. We’ve been very clear that
we’re seeking a balance between strong economic growth and
sustainable management of our resources, and that’s the
path that we’re very firmly committed
to.
SHANE So how
do you achieve that, though, and practice in
reality?
AMY
I think in reality there’s any number of steps
that have to be taken. There isn’t a magic bullet in
this space. There’s not a single thing or things that we
can do. What I think it is is working with each sector to
encourage them to change behaviours, to look to be more
sustainable.
SHANE But doesn’t
it go back to the point, though, that we’re talking about
more roads, more cows, more drilling?
AMY
Well, if we want to have
growth, we need to see more opportunities developed, and I
make no apology for that, but what we do want to see is that
done in a way that’s sustainable. Right now— I mean,
you talk a lot about roads. Right now, roads are how we
get our goods around the country; they’re how we get our
goods to market. They’re a necessary part of our
environment and our economy. And I think, certainly, when
you look at the vast majority of all transport, people or
cargo, it’s done by roads, and that’s certainly a part
of the growth strategy. It’s not the whole of the growth
strategy, but building the infrastructure to support growth
is a necessary way forward. What we do have to do is make
sure that when we’re carrying out that growth, we’re
considering and wherever possible mitigating, remedying or
avoiding adverse effects on the
environment.
SHANE
But how are all those things sustainable? When we
talk about more roads, more cows, more drilling, how are
those things sustainable?
AMY
They’re sustainable as
long as we’re doing them in a way that’s environmentally
responsible.
SHANE Which
is?
AMY
And considers the finite resources that we have
available to us and make sensible decisions. Well, that
depends on the resource that you’re talking about. I
mean, if you’re talking about the freshwater resource, for
example, in the South Island that I’m very familiar with,
if we use it carefully, it is very sustainable and
perpetually renewing. What we have to do is ensure we’re
not overusing it.
SHANE
And there we shall leave it. Minister, thank you
very much for your time. We do appreciate
it.
AMY
You’re
welcome.
ENDS