Paul Holmes Interviews Te Ururoa Flavell
Maori Party MP says police admission they weren’t aware of anyone specifically targeted by Urewera group is another in a
“series of errors”
Police show “lack of understanding of what happened” and its impact on race relations
“Not one” Tuhoe person has ever said the police actions were justified, despite Police Commissioner’s statements (http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/police-commissioner-peter-marshall-video-4901724)
Contrasts Urewera Four sentence with man convicted two years ago for unlawful possession of military-style weapons,
grenade launcher and anti-personnel mine – he got ordered to pay St John’s Ambulance $5000. “You’ve got to measure it
up”
Tuhoe should be proud, not ashamed – Marshall’s comments “way out of order”
Confident “nothing sinister” going on at training camps, but admits not asking those involved
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Q+A
PAUL HOLMES INTERVIEWS TE URUROA FLAVELL
PAUL HOLMES
We’ve heard the police view of Operation Eight and the danger posed by Tame Iti and his cronies.
What does the Maori Party’s Te Ururoa Flavell make of what the Commissioner was saying? The Waiariki MP is live with us
in our Rotorua studio. Kia ora, good morning.
TE URUROA FLAVELL – Maori Party MP
Kia ora, Paul.
PAUL Interesting, isn’t it - Commissioner Marshall was saying that police had no idea what the
targets were, but they went in anyway. Does that strike you as odd?
TE URUROA
Well, it does strike me as odd, and it sort of adds to the picture that’s been developed over
these last four or five years ever since this whole issue hit the nation that there had been a series of errors, I
believe. A series of- A lack of understanding about what happened there, and even this whole case about what a huge
impact it’s had on the state of the nation, and particularly around race relations, I might add, as well.
PAUL Yeah, but go back to what they were doing up there in the bush. The police were sure that this crowd were
up to no good. They had them on tape. They were sure that lives and property were in danger. People were talking about
killing, damage to buildings and so forth. What were they- Again, this is the big question. What were those guys doing
up in the bush?
TE URUROA
Oh, look, it’s not for me to answer that, Paul. I don’t know.
PAUL Well, have you asked questions about what they were doing?
TE URUROA
Say that again?
PAUL Well, have you asked Tame Iti what the hell they were doing?
TE URUROA
No, I haven’t. I haven’t asked him about what he’s done and what he did, but I do know a number
of the people that were involved up there, and, look, we’ve got people who are professionals They’ve been health
workers. They’ve worked alongside Tame at the Tuhoe Hauora. They had their own lives to go about. And I’m very convinced
myself about the number that I know that there was nothing sinister going on at all.
PAUL The Police Commissioner said that elders there in the Ureweras were worried about- they think that the
police action was justified. They were worried for themselves and their community. Do you accept that?
TE URUROA
I don’t know about that, but I’ll say this - ever since this issue rolled out, there has not
been not one Tuhoe person I’ve ever come across that said that their actions were justified. And in fact the gentleman
Mr Paki Nikora that the Commissioner talked about earlier was actually on a hikoi on the day that the kohanga reo went
through the Whakatane community protesting about the action that happened.
PAUL Again, though, go back to this High Court judge. He has lived with this whole affair for months on end, and
he said he believed democracy was at risk. He had no hesitation in giving Tame Iti this two and a half years I mean, he
must know what was going on, mustn’t he?
TE URUROA
Well, he wasn’t there, but what he did do was dispel the whole myth that there’s some sort of
view about terrorism going on, and that the charges have been, to all intents and purposes, minimised to issues about
firearms. Now, in looking at that, I’m disappointed about the outcome of the judge’s determination about what’ll happen
in two and a half years, on the basis that number one, Tame and Te Rangikaiwhiria had been about the community for about
the last two and a half years and there had been no issues about trying to take over the government at all. Number two,
that there’s a precedent in terms of other ways of dealing with firearms charges, and the information I got was for
prohibited and regulated weapons and explosives offences. 151 for imprisonment - that’s the number of people who’ve been
imprisoned; 167 for 2010, just last year. And the last one, Paul, is that about two years ago a gentleman by the name of
Bernard Shapiro, he had unlawful possession of two military style semi-automatic rifles, thunderflash explosives, power
gel explosives, eight sticks, two military flares, a smoke grenade, a grenade launcher, an anti-personnel mine; he
pleaded not guilty. He’s found guilty on seven of the eight charges. And what does he get? He gets asked to pay $5000 to
the St John’s Ambulance. You’ve gotta measure it up on those sorts of terms.
PAUL Well, a friend of mine on Friday was making a comparison between what the captain of the Rena got - seven
months - and Tame Iti’s two and a half years. Do you believe that the police would ever act as they did that day in
Remuera or Parnell, as Shane was asking?
TE URUROA
Ah, that’s an issue for them to consider, but all I can say is this - that their actions on that
day were way over the top, and in hindsight, as we look back, there’s been a comedy of errors. I mean, I’ve got
statements right here, Paul, from people who are mothers with young children who were taken out by the armed offenders
squad on that day, locked away for eight hours without any questioning and food, and the children with them as well in
separate rooms. There’s umpteen stories like that. I’ve had constituents come to me about being basically ostracised in
their own communities in Whakatane, I’m talking about. You know, what we’ve forgotten is there’s sort of two parts here.
One is to do with those people who actually had to front this thing for the last three or four years, and those in the
community - and I’m a little distressed about the Commissioner’s point about saying that Tuhoe should be ashamed - I
don’t think so. In fact, Tuhoe should be proud, and will be proud, obviously, about themselves as a nation. But to throw
those sorts of accusations round is well out of order.
PAUL The Commissioner said he was looking forward to being invited back. Do you think he will be?
TE URUROA
Well, I like to think that he was way out of line, for starters, on issuing an apology on the
day that Tame Iti gets two and a half years prison, for goodness sake. So that’s for Tuhoe to consider whether he gets
back into that community.
PAUL Mr Flavell, thank you very much indeed for your time.
ENDS