Q+A’s Paul Holmes Interviews Lt Gen Jerry Mateparae Via Satellite From Gallipoli

Points of interest:

- Defence Force Chief supports negotiations with the Taliban: “it’s part of the reconciliation process that is necessary and required in Afghanistan

- “Marked improvement” in security in Afghanistan in past eight to nine months, now we need to see improvement in the “politicking”

- SAS in Kabul “just chipping away” at improving “security, governance and development”, “making a positive difference”

- SAS and Bamiyan reconstruction team unlikely to have their tours in Afghanistan extended: “We’ve got other things to be concerned about in our own area”

- The war is winnable because most Afghanis support the ISAF and want peace: “it’s a matter of holding the course”

- Afghanistan campaign not a “misadventure” like Gallipoli: “Now we’re looking at a small group of people who are holding the globe to ransom”

- “When you belong to a community you do have to muck in and help… the effort that we're putting in there is making sure that we don’t have to make another effort somewhere else”

- New Zealand military “not stretched”, “not being asked to make any cuts”

- Gallipoli resonates today because both ANZACs and Turks were defending values which were exceptionally important to them”

- CDF has met Turkish vets and teens and is struck by how similar they are to New Zealand equivalents
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The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

LT. GEN JERRY MATEPARAE interviewed by PAUL HOLMES
(via satellite from Gallipoli)

PAUL It is 95 years since the Australian New Zealand Army Corps first stood and died together on the Turkish coastline. In military terms it was a disaster, but it's become a foundation stone of our national identity. Amongst those gathered at Gallipoli this year is the Chief of the New Zealand Defence Force, Lt.Gen. Jerry Mateparae. In a few hours he's going to be on his way to the dawn service at ANZAC Cove where he will lay the wreath, and offer the call of commemoration. Lt.Gen. Mateparae enlisted in the Army back in 1972, he's served in the SAS, he has commanded missions in Bougainville, Lebanon, and what was then East Timor, and he took over as our most senior military officer in 2006, and I spoke to him just a couple of hours ago via satellite from Turkey. General can I ask you first of all where are you, those lights in the background, that’s the city of Canakkale, yes?

LT.GEN. JERRY MATEPARAE
We're in Canakkale now, looking back over the Dardanelles towards the Gallipoli peninsula.

PAUL Right, so that is water between you and the lights?

LT.GEN. Water between us and the lights on the other side yes.

PAUL Your impressions General, your feelings as a military man, being there at Gallipoli, what are they?

LT.GEN. Quite different to what you read, when you see the peninsula, when you see the ground and particularly where the ANZACs landed you are very conscious of how close the terrain is, and how close the soldiers must have been to their adversaries.

PAUL Yes you’ve been up to ANZAC Cove haven't you the day before yesterday, what do you make of it as a landing place?

LT.GEN. We went out the other day and where it is now the beach isn't as broad as it was in 1915. As a beach it looked quite an easy beach to come aboard, come along, but once you got on to the beach then the hills beside it were absolutely steep, as recorded in our histories.

PAUL General what do you believe are the reasons that Gallipoli is so important to us?

LT.GEN. I think Gallipoli resonates with New Zealanders and Australians particularly, because we had young men who for all sorts of reasons decided that they wanted to take part in a war, and on the other side because I think that’s important, we had young men who decided that they needed to defend their homeland. And so with both of them they were defending values which were exceptionally important to them. For us I think though that it's that place where New Zealand and Australia made their mark on the world stage.

PAUL When you looked at that terrain the other day when you went to ANZAC Cove, can we imagine 95 years on really what those eight months must have been like?

LT.GEN. No you just can't imagine the conditions that those men were living in. In the heat of the day it would have been difficult. But then in the rain and the mud and the slush equally it would have been difficult, and then above them overlooking them, were the Turkish soldiers who were raining down their terror on them. So it was a terrible place.

PAUL You described the temperatures as quite warm when we were talking and I suppose the heat would have been another factor about Gallipoli for the ANZACs.

LT.GEN. Absolutely, and yeah we're told that on the day, on the 25th of April 1915 it was a calm day, and the sea was like glass, and we were across there today and the sea was like glass. And then as the day came through it got very warm and in the middle of the day it was 28 degrees, so we went from you know quite a cool five or six degrees when we first arrived to a 28 degree change in temperature, amazing difference.

PAUL General, modern stuff. New Zealand is currently deployed in some 14 locations militarily around the world, does that make you stretched?

LT.GEN. I don’t think were stretched, I think we're doing our bit as we were in 1915, and I think you know young New Zealanders still feel firstly there's a sense of adventure to be had with the Defence Force. But secondly there are some things that we can do to help others in need.

PAUL The SAS of course is in Afghanistan, I wonder has that helped recruitment numbers increase over the past couple of years, cos they have haven't they?

LT.GEN. No, I think the fact that the New Zealand Defence Force is doing its business around the globe and also you know close to home in the Solomons, and recently in Samoa, I think young people are seeing that we are doing things that are positive, that are making a difference. So I don’t think it's necessarily just, you know, the SAS, I think it's more broadly that the Defence Force is doing a good job.

PAUL In your 2009 annual report General you said you’ve corrected shortages, which the Defence Force was experiencing, you’ve strengthened numbers of personnel at headquarters, and now you’ve been told really to rein things in a bit as with all government departments; to make some cuts. Is that a hard ask for you?

LT.GEN. Let me correct you, we have not been asked to make any cuts. What we've been asked to do is to do things better, and do things more simply, and so I mean the young people of the Defence Force are stepping up to the mark and doing that well.

PAUL One of our 14 deployments of course internationally is Afghanistan, there's been a surge in the international force troop numbers to push the Taliban on the defence and hopefully to have them negotiate. Is it working, that surge in Afghanistan?

LT.GEN. You know you can't characterise activities in Afghanistan in one way. Certainly there has been some success in Afghanistan and that has been you know played out in the world media, and certainly in places that we're involved in Bamiyan, you know that’s been I would say, a success story for a long long time. And in Kabul where we're also operating, you know it's just small steps forward, just chipping away at the security and the governance and the development lines that we need to enhance, so that we do have our positive outcome.

PAUL In a speech you're delivering today, ANZAC Day, you call Gallipoli a misadventure, is it possible that history might regard Afghanistan the same way?

LT.GEN. I think not, you know two different environments. In 1915 there was a world war, there were civilisations versus civilisations or empires versus empires. Now we are looking at an arrangement where there is a small group of people who are holding the globe to ransom, and therefore you know it's quite a different set of circumstances.

PAUL Many New Zealanders ask this General, I'm sure you’ve been asked the same question. The Defence Force's purpose is to defend our sovereign interests, so in what way are we defending our sovereign interests in Afghanistan, which of course many call the graveyard of empires?

LT.GEN. Well what we are doing, as we did in 1915, is doing our bit, and you know when you belong to a community you do have to muck in and help. I guess that’s what we're doing, you know, I can see that the effort that we're putting in there is making sure that we don’t have to make another effort somewhere else.

PAUL Another worry I s’pose people have about Afghanistan is the question of whether we are by being there militarily propping up a corrupt government. I mean Mr Kazai for example has said well we might go to the Taliban and start talking to the Taliban, he apparently has told local media that the overseas forces are essentially invaders. Should we be propping this crowd up?

LT.GEN. People in Afghanistan and people in Auckland and in New Zealand, are sure that what we're doing is the right thing to be doing, and I think in both cases it is the right thing to be doing, and I guess it's how do people articulate that. To my mind speaking to the Taliban is important, I think it's part of the reconciliation process that is necessary and indeed you know absolutely required in Afghanistan.

PAUL It's fair to say though General isn't it, that there is a decrease in faith in Mr Kazai occurring around the world?

LT.GEN. There is a perception that some of the things that Mr Kazai has said in the recent past has not been a positive indication of where we would like it to be going, but again you know there are constituencies to be played to. And the constituency in New Zealand is one where, you know, we want to be sure that the effort that we put in is being regarded in the right way. I think that’s the same in all of the other constituencies around the globe. I think that people want to see that the effort that they're making is being valued, is being recognised, and is being positive in moving forward.

PAUL Is it being so do you think?

LT.GEN. I think so, I mean I certainly think that over the last eight to nine months that there has been an incremental change and a positive change, in the situation, the security situation. Your commentary is right, what we need to see though is an improvement in the development side but also in the politicking that’s going on. Now I am aware that Mr Kazai also wants through a jirga [assembly], through a peace jirga, to engage a lot more people. Now how we might do it is not necessarily how Afghans would want to do it.

PAUL Can I speak to you now about the SAS, General. The government has indicated it wants more openness really about what the SAS does with its activities. Older soldiers balk at this of course. What's your view?

LT.GEN. My view is that New Zealanders have a right to know, to understand, what people are doing on their behalf, and that goes to the SAS as well.

PAUL So in the interests of openness General, what's the SAS doing in Afghanistan, what are they doing at the moment?

LT.GEN. In Afghanistan they're operating in and around Kabul as has been told, they're making a positive difference, they are both doing their own business as part of the ISAF contribution, but they're also looking out for our interests, so that, you know, when we're asking people to go there you know we can provide them with protection.

PAUL Of course Afghanistan is the kind of deployment which could go on for a very long time. Now, American forces are due to start pulling out around the middle of next year, 2011, we went in last September for 18 months, meaning we're probably due out around about next March, is that going to happen?

LT.GEN. The mandate for New Zealand Forces to Afghanistan finishes in September 2011, the mandate for the SAS has been an 18 month deployment which started last September-October. So we're matching how we operate in Afghanistan to the conditions in Afghanistan, and also to the conditions at home in relation to just how much the Defence Force can commit, in the event that we've got other things that we need to be concerned about in our own area, we've got modernisation plans that are unrolling, we've got other things to look to.

PAUL Can I ask you this, and I'm sure you’ve asked yourself this General. Is that war in Afghanistan winnable?

LT.GEN. I think it is winnable. You know the information that I've had from General Stanley McCrystal and from others is that, you know, there are a majority of Afghanis who just want to go about their daily lives, there are a majority of Afghanis who don’t want to have a conflict in their backyard. The majority of Afghanis are supportive of the international effort in Afghanistan. It's a matter of holding the course, it's a matter of providing that confidence to them, that you know there is an alternative to what they’ve had. And my understanding is that there has been a marked improvement in security and in the development lines around the south, and certainly where we are in Bamiyan. We've had remarkable successes there, and if you use Bamiyan as the example of what it could be like, you know where you have a Governor who is able to govern effectively, who is able to put development into the appropriate spaces, who's able to carry the people, then it is very very much a winnable war.

PAUL General you will be at the dawn service in the morning and I know that you would like to go and get some sleep, you’ve had a big day, big couple of days at Gallipoli. Will you be meeting some of the many many hundreds of young people who have made the pilgrimage on your ANZAC Day?

LT.GEN. Paul I will. And tomorrow I am looking forward to meeting some veterans, our own veterans, and we've brought some veterans across, but also some Turkish veterans, and I met about 20 today, and it's amazing how similar they are as people. I've also met some of our young people that we've brought through, and met some young Turkish people, and again it's amazing how close they are in the way that they look at things, and the way that they look at us as foreigners. So I hold out every hope because I think the young people of this country, that is Turkey, and our country, have got so many similarities, and it's neat to be able to talk to them.

PAUL So that was Lt. Gen. Jerry Mateparae talking from Gallipoli.

ENDS

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