On The Nation: Patrick Gower interviews Hekia Parata

On The Nation: Patrick Gower interviews Hekia Parata

Youtube clips from the show are available here.

Headlines:

Education Minister says new funding proposals would see public funding attached to pupils who go to private schools.

Parata: “what I’m proposing is that if we end up with a per-student approach as is being discussed now, that we look at setting a specific percentage against that that would go to independent schools if parents are choosing to send their children there.”

“If that’s what New Zealanders think is fair,” it would mean more money for private schools

Denies it’s a bailout despite Ministry of Education proposals indicating private education sector is under financial pressure.

Can’t rule out larger class sizes under new ‘global funding’ proposals that give principals more budgetary discretion; says class sizes are already flexible under current system.

“schools have quite a bit of discretion about how they use their funding... But what we are looking for is greater flexibility…”

Patrick Gower: Now, the government has set up an advisory group to rethink education funding, and on Tuesday we got a glimpse of just what they’re thinking. Now, while it’s all ‘proposals’ at this stage, there are some pretty controversial bits. For one, what do you think about tying public money to private schools? Yes, public money going with every school kid through the private school gates – pretty controversial. But what put the initial cat amongst the pigeons – and this is controversial too – something called global funding. It gives principals more say on how they spend their school’s money, so immediately drew comparisons with – yes, you guessed it – bulk funding. Now, when I spoke to Education Minister Hekia Parata yesterday, I started by asking her just what global funding is all about.

Hekia Parata: We’re saying, ‘How do we give greater flexibility to principals and boards about what teaching staff they need in order to meet the size of the education challenge at that school?’ And so the proposal of the global budget is that the teaching staff will be charged at an average rate and that leaves the school determining just how they’re going to use that resource.

Okay, so, here’s a scenario: a principal decides that getting new computers for the kids is a priority. They then can look at their staffing ratios and perhaps cut a teacher or two, bring in some teacher aides and make some money available out of that budget that they can then use for those computers. Could that happen, Minister?

We’re right at a very early stage of this funding review, so no decisions have been made yet. These are the kinds of discussions that we’re having. But I think it’s worth bearing in mind that right now schools have quite a bit of discretion about how they use their funding to make decisions about whether or not they’re going to have more teacher aides or whether they’re going to invest in a device policy, to use your example. But what we are looking for is greater flexibility and that it is tied to the evidence about what their education challenges, specifically in their school. One of the failings of the decile system is that it averages out.

Yeah, but this, Minister— Sorry to interrupt, but just to pick up on your point there, Minister. This does give them greater discretion than now. It does give them the ability to pick and choose their staffing, and, in that sense, it is – what opponents are calling – bulk funding in drag, isn’t it?

No, those opponents are quite wrong, and it’s really interesting that we’ve got opponents two weeks into a process of considering this. So they are quite wrong. What we are proposing is a total funding review, of which the global budget for teaching provision is one part of it. We do want boards and principals to have discretion about the choices they have to make because we want them to make a specific difference for every child in their school.

So, here’s the problem with that discretion, which has many good parts, but here’s the problem with it: class sizes, for instance. A principal could decide to have less teachers and more kids in a classroom in order to make some money available. Can you guarantee that global funding won’t lead to an increase in class sizes? Because it’s a really important question for parents and kids out there – can you guarantee?

So, principals already set class sizes now. We fund on a ratio, but a principal decides, at a school, what the class size will be. That discretion is already available and is already exercised now. So, that particular issue—

If we look at this, this would incentivise them to change that ratio even further, wouldn’t it? Can you guarantee that we wouldn’t see increased class sizes under this global budgeting?

So, no decisions have been made. These proposals and the background papers are fully available to any member of the public, any parent who’s interested in having a look at this. We have an advisory group that represents all parts of the education system in New Zealand.

But it’s possible, isn’t it, Minister? It is possible that they could fiddle with class ratios, lower them, raise them, whatever, in order to save themselves some money for elsewhere in the school. It’s possible.

So, we have, across New Zealand now, schools that are team teaching , are doing individual teaching, doing 1:4-type teaching, doing smaller and bigger ratios depending on what the particular need is in that school. And that decision is made by the leader of that school, the principal or the leaders of those particular syndicates of teachers. And we trust them to use their professional discretion about what will bring about the best learning for the actual kids they have at their school. What we’re trying to do with the funding review is to support them by–

I’m not going to labour the point, and we’ll move on here, but that could obviously include higher teacher-to-student ratios, couldn’t it? And it could also include, Minister, more use, for instance, of training teachers, if that’s what the principal decides.

So, all the things that you’re concerned about are already present in our education system, is the point I’m making. What we’re trying to do with the funding review is to put resources, target them to the kids that need them most, when they need them, in order that we can get the best education for every Kiwi kid in our country.

I want to turn now to the proposal for the funding of private schools, essentially in their attaching public funding to every student in a public school. Is that what would happen if that proposal went ahead?

Well, the first thing to know is that kids who go to independent schools are our cheapest kids in terms of state funding, and so the proposal here would be that we set a particular percentage base against the standard student funding, if that’s what emerges from this process, which will equate much more accurately to what it costs the state to educate New Zealand kids. And it will also give predictability and certainty, which is a key interest of mine in this process to all schools, no matter what type, so that they can plan for really good education for the kids whose parents choose to send them to that particular school.

Okay, well, let’s cut to the chase and translate that. That means more public money, doesn’t it, for private schools? Plain and simple.

Well, it means parents in New Zealand, who are all taxpayers whether they choose to send their children to an independent school or to a bilingual school or to a single-sex school, can expect that they’ll get some support through Vote Education to support their choice for their children. And at the moment, as I’ve said, kids who go to independent schools are the cheapest in terms of how much taxpayer funding is used. And what I’m proposing is that if we end up with a per-student approach as is being discussed now, that we look at setting a specific percentage against that that would go to independent schools if parents are choosing to send their children there.

So every student that walks through the door of King’s College, for example, would take a bundle of public money with them, wouldn’t they?

As they do now. It’s just a question of – what level should that be set at?

Private independent schools, this report says, are facing funding difficulties at the moment. They are under financial pressure. Is this a bailout?

No, no, not at all. This is about how does a New Zealand government invest in kids getting the best education possible, supporting the choice that parents have available to them and giving flexibility as well as predictability to schools in the same way as, for instance, the state supports integrated schools, faith-based schools, and different choices are made by different parents as to whether their children will go to those. We support total immersion schools. We support bilingual schools. We support partnership schools. And we are trying to arrive at a more coherent…

Yes, but it’s about this, isn’t it? You understand the politics here, Minister. You are happy to go out to voters and say, ‘We will provide more public money to private schools like King’s College,’ because that is what this proposal is saying.

I’m happy to go out to parents of New Zealand, taxpayers of New Zealand, and say that we currently put a lot of their money into education and we’re not necessarily getting the best use out of it and here is a proposal for how we might do that to ensure that we maintain the choice that parents have, but we also raise the achievement of all New Zealand kids across the country. And that will mean a differential of funding, and what I’m proposing in terms of independent schools is that that differential is more predictable and more certain than it is now, that it is certainly less than the full funding that we provide to other mainstream schools and that all the paperwork on this discussion is fully available so we can get back feedback from parents and taxpayers on what they think about this proposition.

And if that means more public money for private schools, so be it?

Well, if that’s what New Zealanders think is fair – that we want to continue to have a really good education system in New Zealand. We want it to be a proposition that supports parents having choices about where they send their kids.

Nga mihi, Minister. Thank you for your time. Kia ora.

Kia ora.

Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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