Sunday 23rd October, 2011
Q+A panel on RWC.
The panel discussion has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this
morning’s Q+A can be watched on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news
Q+A, 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE. Repeats at 9.10pm Sundays, 9:05am and 1:05pm Mondays on TVNZ 7
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PANEL DISCUSSION moderated by PAUL HOLMES
PAUL Time to welcome our World Cup panel. Dr Jon Johansson of Victoria University is our regular political analyst and also
played senior grade rugby on the wing for the Merivale - Papanui in Christchurch. I played as a prop very badly for
Haumoana School. I never understood what I was doing in a scrum and where the ball went after it got out.
JON JOHANSSON – Political Analyst
You were a prop, Paul?
PAUL I was a prop. David Kirk was also a useful player – 17 Tests at halfback for the All Blacks. We all remember him,
of course, as the only All Blacks captain to lift the Rugby World Cup, although we're hoping this day he loses that
honour. But of course he also worked in the Beehive during the Bolger years, and he sought National Party nomination for
Tamaki in the 1992 by-election. He went on to be chief executive of the Fairfax Media Group, which bought Trade Me under
his rein, and is now executive chairman of the Bailador Investment Management in Sydney.
Michael Jones is with us this morning. Michael is one of our genuine rugby legends. The statue outside the ground of
Eden Park is proof of that. And, you know, it’s amazing. You’re the only man with a statue outside Eden Park and you
couldn’t get in this morning.
(LAUGHTER)
MICHAEL JONES – Former All Black
That’s right.
PAUL I knew that’d happen. He was the first man to score a try at a Rugby World Cup back in 1987. What a great moment.
But he too has dabbled in the idea of politics. He was widely touted as a potential National Party MP in this year's
election before he opted to put family considerations first. He is now a strategic manager for the Reef Group, a freight
and shipping company operating in the South Pacific. Good morning to all of youse. What an amazing day to be back at
Eden Park, and you were telling me before you’re so glad it’s this time of the morning.
DAVID KIRK – 1987 World Cup Captain
Yeah, exactly right. I said, even if we hadn’t had the programme to shoot here, I would have loved to have come here
and just walked around Eden Park – no one here, this air of expectation and the goosebumps. It’s a wonderful feeling at
the moment here.
PAUL And what do you feel about being here? I mean, 24 years on, this is Cup final day.
MICHAEL Yeah, it’s quite surreal, really, Paul. I mean, like Kirky just... I mean, things have changed, but just the
sort of almost... smell the liniment and sense that the boys are going to run out for what is such a historical day. But
it only just seems like yesterday, I must admit.
PAUL How’s the tournament gone, do you think? How’s it gone? How’s it played?
MICHAEL Well, I... I mean, we have to applaud the leadership around what has taken place. I mean, I’ve seen not only Mr
McCully but Martin Sneddon and the whole 2011 Rugby World Cup, you know, operation – it’s just been unbelievable. I’ve
been privileged to be part of the volunteer programme, and just to see how the New Zealand public have gotten behind
this – it’s just been such a showcase of New Zealand Inc, but I think most importantly in terms of outside the rugby,
about a celebration of the power of rugby to bring a nation together and just showcase everything that’s great about
this fantastic country.
PAUL You make a good point – the celebration of New Zealand Inc, and I think New Zealand Inc has projected itself very
well to the world. It’s said, “Come have a look at us.”
JON And particularly to my eyes, Paul, provincial New Zealand – the way that it has embraced the World Cup has been
tremendous to watch, and, you know, seeing people in New Plymouth becoming Russian for a week has been exhilarating for
both them and the rest of us to watch, so I’ve loved that aspect of it too, and I guess, you know, from the comments
that I heard about the next tournament, it seems that the way that we have showcased as a stadium of four million, as
it’s been said, seems to be replicated in the following tournament too, where they’re going to have more
decentralised...
PAUL Yes, but it’s a brilliant concept, that stadium of four million. It really was a brilliant concept, wasn’t it?
JON Yeah, and we’ve had a tough old year, so, you know, this has been a... not so much necessary, but a good diversion
away from a lot of that toughness in Canterbury and elsewhere.
PAUL Yes, when you were on the wing for Papanui-Merivale, did you ever wonder if you’d be broadcasting live from Eden
Park on Cup day?
JON In those days, mate, Lancaster Park was it. I mean, you always feel a bit of a foreigner being a Cantabrian up here.
DAVID Quite right too.
PAUL What were your thoughts when you arrived in the bus that day for this final against the French back in ’87?
DAVID Well, always before Test matches, there was sort of a little bit of a feeling of dread, you know. “I want to go
out there. I want to be part of it. I want to win.” But, you know, there's a fear of failure and the fear of not living
up to the expectations of yourself and your team was always part of it. But mostly on that day, it was this overriding
feeling that this is a unique opportunity: “I’ve got an opportunity, this team’s got an opportunity. We just have to
take it.”
PAUL Interesting point, too – today is a Sunday, Michael Jones, and of course the reason you don’t have the number of
Tests you probably should have accumulated as an All Black was so often the games were on Sundays – the big World Cup
matches. If you were still playing as an All Black, would you be playing tonight?
MICHAEL (laughs) No, I mean, nothing’s changed in terms of, you know, my...
PAUL Your beliefs?
MICHAEL It’s always been a conviction of mine. But it’s interesting, Paul, that I probably wouldn’t even have been in
the team, because we were fortunate back in the day that we were amateur and we didn’t sign contracts and, you know,
played solely for the love of it...
PAUL But now it’d be in your contract, yeah.
MICHAEL If we were required to sign a contract, I would have been precluded from playing.
PAUL Parts of the Sky coverage, I have to say, that’s gone out to the world, had those little vignettes of the towns in
which the games are being played. And the world saw a different New Zealand – they suddenly realised that New Zealand is
not necessarily pouring rain at Carisbrook – you know, when the games are usually July and August. They see that we have
a spring, we have golden light, we have summer coming and so forth. Advertising can’t buy you that.
DAVID No, that’s exactly right, and that’s.... You know, when people tot up the economics of the World Cup and did we
make money out of it, was it good for the country, that’s the big unquantifiable benefit that we’ve got. We’ve sent out
massive positive branding messages to the rest of the world. It’s fantastic.
PAUL Well, you live in Australia. Has the country looked good?
DAVID The country’s looked fantastic, and it’s really what Jon was saying before – what people have been sort of amazed
about, and this has been the only great sporting event in the world that has been able to do it this way, every little
town, every little part of New Zealand has just given a big hug to our visitors and made them feel really welcome, and
that’s been wonderful.
PAUL I know. Everyone in Remuera became Scottish. I wondered what all these Scottish flags were doing one day. I said,
“What the hell’s going on round here?”
JON What happened after the Scots went out, Paul?
PAUL No, they’re still flying the Scottish flags. Don’t worry. We’re still very loyal. They are still very loyal. We
talk about the... I don’t even remember the opening ceremony. I was at the game in ’87, but I don’t even remember the
opening ceremony. It was so hokey and kind of downcast. And this one, of course, was a multimillion-dollar job up there
with the Olympics. So we must marvel at how big the Rugby World Cup tournament has become, but is commercialisation of
the event a bit of a worry? I mean, if you take that mouth guard business, the attitude of the IRB – and we’ll speak
about this later, the attitude of the IRB to Pacific Island teams – but was that excessive? $10,000 fine for that boy?
MICHAEL I mean, certainly from where I sat, and I wasn’t involved with any of the Pacific Island teams this year, but
just as I think as a fair-dinkum Kiwi, I mean, we love the thought of fairness and that everyone’s treated on an even
playing field, and we just... Yeah, I certainly felt that it was a bit over the top. I mean, I don’t think any New
Zealander even noticed that there was anything on that mouth guard until it was raised, so...
PAUL No, no, exactly. And others were doing it.
MICHAEL And others were doing it.
PAUL It made the IRB look like, you know, the old gin-soaked, high-handed Northern Hemisphere wallahs and Poms that we
all suspect they are.
JON And they don’t need much help in that regard.
PAUL They don’t need much help in that regard. But let’s talk about the Pacific thing, Michael, because I quite admired
the boy for tweeting his dissatisfactions, and there’s an attitude to the Pacific Islands – the squeezed playing
schedule. Even at Zinzan Brooke’s This is Your Life the other night, Will Carling was talking to Mike Brewer about it.
It’s too squeezed – for the minnows, particularly, and the Pacific Islands.
MICHAEL Yeah, I mean, I think again – young Eliota, there was a lot of sympathy for the young man. I mean, he’s a very
outspoken... I mean, I don’t think David and myself would have gone about our messaging that way, and using that
language or those analogies, certainly not. But, I mean, even the IRB have admitted that some of those calls had
justification. So...
PAUL Discussion has began, hasn’t it?
MICHAEL Yeah, so essentially the challenge really is what next? I mean, is there going to be some key calls made? I
mean, it takes some strong leadership to make some of these calls, but I’ve already heard whispers that even that whole
area about scheduling is going to be shifted so that it is... Again, it’s all about a level playing field, and that’s...
PAUL A fellow was writing the other day, saying it’s almost institutionalised racism. You look at this, David. Consider
this. The IRB council... The eight foundation unions each have two seats – Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia,
New Zealand, South Africa and France. Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan each have one seat on the council. And Tonga
and Samoa don’t have a seat on that council, and they play higher up the scale than Canada or Italy.
DAVID I don’t think...
PAUL I mean, it’s ludicrous.
DAVID Yeah, I agree. It’s absolutely wrong. It’s not racism, though. They’ve made that decision not on the basis of
race, but on the basis of historical playing power in history and engagement with the national governing body. But it’s
time to change that.
PAUL Yeah. Do the IRB, on the other hand, get an undeserved bad rap? Because they do hand out a fortune to the smaller
nations. I think in the last... £300 million... Do you notice, by the way, when you read IRB figures, it’s always
pounds? It’s always pounds. But, like, they hand out massive amounts to 117 member unions. Do they get...?
DAVID They do, and that is great work that they do, and we’ve seen the benefit of that work at this Rugby World Cup.
We’ve seen, you know, Romania, Russia, the United States – all of those countries really lifting, and that’s partly to
do with that development money, so we do have to give them a big tick for that
JON And also...
PAUL Quickly, Jon.
JON ...in a way if they were making a pure commercial decision, the Rugby World Cup wouldn’t have been here.
PAUL No, that’s true. Because while virtually all the tickets were sold,...
JON But bigger media markets.
PAUL ...the stadia are down in size, that’s right.