Interview by Anne Gearan of the Associated Press
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Washington, DC
December 21, 2006
QUESTION: We'll start with Iraq -- that's right. And we've heard you and others say for a while now that, you know, one
event or another in Iraq -- the elections, the advent of the Maliki government was an opportunity for a fresh start or a
real opportunity in Iraq. I mean, I think the Maliki government was even described as a last chance to get Iraq right.
And the violence has gotten far worse since then. What should give Americans confidence that President Bush's current
search for a new approach in Iraq can have any more affect than previous attempts?
SECRETARY RICE: I don't know what -- I think it's undeniable and that at each juncture a new challenge has arisen for
the Iraqis, as they got through the elections, they got through the constitution and then in February of '06 the Samarra
bombing set off a different challenge, which is this structural -- you know, the challenge of sectarian violence. And so
I think it's perfectly fair to say at each juncture there have been new challenges. But I think this time you do have a
government that's now been in power for several months that seems quite determined to take responsibility for its own
affairs and I think recognizes that particularly as to the matter of sectarian violence that that's something that only
Iraqis can solve. It’s a great test for that government, the real goal for that government is going to have to be to
really demonstrate to the Iraqi people that they're prepared to deal with those who are not willing to live inside the
law whatever sect they come from, whether they're Shia or Sunni. And I think that if they do that and they do that with
the help of coalition forces to support their military forces in ways that may be needed, then this government will
establish itself as one that can protect its people and govern. But that's the challenge for them right now.
QUESTION: Are you confident that Maliki can either deal with Sadr or separate himself from Sadr, survive Sadr?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I am confident that there is a broad political center in Iraq that understands how this has to be
done and understands the urgency of doing it. And I don't think Sadr is one among several issues that the Iraqis need to
deal with, but the real issue is whoever it is, if they're operating outside the law, if they're operating death squads,
if they're going into cities and forcing populations, forcing civilians out then they've got to be dealt with. And
that's really the dividing line. I think it's not Sadr or no Sadr; it's inside the law or outside the law.
QUESTION: Is Iraq now more of a negative influence on other nations in the Middle East? Has it been a positive one? I
mean, is it having precisely the opposite effect as you had hoped for spreading democracy?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think in time it will be a very positive influence. I think right now it is a challenge for the
region. It's a problem for the region. But it's not as if Saddam Hussein's Iraq wasn't a problem for the region or a
challenge for the region. You know he occupied and tried to own Kuwait. He possessed weapons of mass destruction. He
gassed Iranians. He launched a major war that cost a million Iranian lives. The truth of the matter is Iraq is -- was a
huge security problem for the region under Saddam Hussein. It's now a different kind of challenge but it has the
prospect of being a positive force in the region and I think that the countries of the region are now facing up to their
responsibilities to try and make it a positive force not a negative one.
QUESTION: You said in time, do you have -- at this point -- any expectation of how long that will be?
SECRETARY RICE: I think it has already had a positive impact. You know, I do think the fact that you have a potential
model for Kurds, Shia and Sunni to live together without repression is a positive development. And I think the fact that
nobody actually worries about an Iraq that's going to be -- that will invade its neighbors is a positive development in
the region. But I don't -- I can't give you a timeframe for when Iraq will be governed by -- stably governed and able to
defend itself. But at that time, I think it's going to be a very positive development.
QUESTION: Perhaps no one's worried that Iraq will invade its neighbors, but some are worried that some of the neighbors
might invade Iraq. Are you concerned at all about this unique position?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I do think you have to be concerned about the influence and activities in Iran, which the Iraqis
have gone to the Iranians and said you need to stop these activities that are feeding sectarianism, feeding the
violence. Obviously, there are questions -- there could have been questions about the northern border but the Turks have
taken a quite different tack. They've gone out of their way to be supportive of the Iraqis. They've gone out of their
way even to make bridges to the Kurds. There's a problem of the PKK terrorists that has to be dealt with, but even there
it’s the Iraqis -- the Turks and we are dealing with that in a trilateral cooperative mechanism. So some of Iraq's
neighbors have been quite helpful; other have not been as helpful.
QUESTION: And there's this question of whether if the situation really seriously took a dive that Saudi Arabia or Jordan
might feel it necessary to protect their own interests.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, I think everybody knows that that would be a very destabilizing, very bad (inaudible). And I think
it's why you see instead, even if some people say that or speculate that way, you see that the Saudis have made really
extraordinary efforts to try and convince Sunnis to be involved in the political process. They have been active with the
tribes. The Jordanians have been active having Iraqis in and out to talk with each other in reconciliation efforts. I
think the neighbors understand that any such breakdown would be very detrimental to them and to the region. And so their
responsibility -- I think they're exercising it more and more -- is to be responsible neighbors for Iraq.
QUESTION: Have you told the Saudis and the Jordanians as much?
SECRETARY RICE: Sure, yeah. I mean, we had a discussion of the need to support this government and the fact that
everybody now has a stake in this government just being able to survive and prosper.
QUESTION: One last one on Iraq, there's an accounting term called, sunk loss, which essentially.
SECRETARY RICE: Sunk loss.
QUESTION: Yeah, cut your losses. Go back to -- yes, I've got to go back to -- yeah. And again, basically don't throw
good money after bad. What's -- I mean, what's another hundred billion going to do that $400 billion hasn't already?
SECRETARY RICE: I don't think it's a matter of money. I think it's a matter of stages of development that Iraq is having
to go through. I'd be the first to say it's taken longer and it's been harder and there have been more challenges, some
of them expected than I would have thought. But I think the fact is also that along the way there have been plenty of
markers that show that this is a country that is worth the investment because once it emerges as a country that is a
stabilizing factor, you'll have a very different kind of Middle East. And I know that from the point of view of not just
monetary costs, but the sacrifice of American lives, a lot has been sacrificed for Iraq, a lot has been invested in
Iraq. But the President wouldn't ask for the continued sacrifice and the continued investment if he did not believe and
in fact I believe as well that this will in fact -- we can in fact succeed and that it's imperative that we succeed.
QUESTION: Do you think there's time left in the Administration for his work and yours overseas to be defined by anything
other than Iraq?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think that's going to depend a little bit on, you know, that's kind of out of our hands. I think
there's an awful lot that defines this Administration. Obviously the Middle East is the place that we have seen the
greatest challenges and the most extraordinary changes and we're in part responsible for some of those by decisions that
the President made. Some of those changes were coming one way or another in a region that actually wasn't very -- wasn't
particularly -- wasn't at all stable; stagnant, but it wasn't stable.
But there are an awful lot of other things that this President should be known for. He should be known for increasing --
doubling development assistance and trippling it to Africa after a period in which U.S. development assistance was
essentially flat for decades. He should be known for the largest single investment in AIDS and malaria, the biggest
health investment of any government program ever. He should be known for having contributed vitally to stopping the
civil war between southern and northern Sudan and now working on Darfur, stopping the civil war in the DRC and really
the United States with the Nigerians and ECOWAS effectively stopping the war in Liberia. I mean, I can go on and on. For
the best relationship any American administration has ever had with India for landing that civil nuclear deal with India
that cemented that relationship. There are an awful lot of things that I think this Administration will be known for,
but as you said, there's two years more to go, so let's see what more there will be.
QUESTION: Fuad Siniora has said that in his view the United States didn't do enough to support him during their war with
Israel. Mahmoud Abbas has suggested that the United States hasn't always done what -- all that he would have wanted to
support him either. You pointed to both men as precisely the kind of moderate small "d" democrats you want to see in the
Middle East. Can, you know, the United States be an honest broker for Arab-Israeli peace if there's a perception that,
you know, you don't do enough or that you have the finger on the scale for Israel?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, nobody has their finger -- we have -- I hope we have a finger on the scale for peace
and, you know, and certainly in Lebanon without the United States of America there would have been no ceasefire in
Lebanon. And I know it came later than everybody would have liked, but it also came in a way that strengthened the hand
ultimately of the Lebanese Government because the Lebanese authority was extended throughout the country through the
Lebanese armed forces. It's something that hadn't been done in 30 years.
I think in the Israeli-Palestinian issue, the United States is in a position to take advantage of what I hope is a real
opening for movement toward -- you know, more rapid movement on the roadmap through to real progress toward a
Palestinian state. And I think that's true in part because of certain structural realignments that are taking place.
People are seeing their interests as different. I think the Arabs see the need and desirability of making peace with
Israel. I think the Israelis, in part thanks to Ariel Sharon and continued by Ehud Olmert, recognize that they're going
to have to divide the land. This is something that by the way had not been the position of Likud really until Sharon's
Herzliya speech. So that's a new factor.
I think the President's willingness to call unambiguously for a Palestinian state so that now, by the way, one of the
so-called final status issues will there be a Palestinian state, well, yes. The President sort of solved that issue. I
think all of these things will give hope and opportunity that we may be able to make progress toward a Palestinian
state. A lot has changed in the last five years and no small part of it has been because of American policy.
QUESTION: What are your particular plans or goals for 2007 in -- on that front? Is there something specific you think
you can do in the fairly short term?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, the first thing is that I do believe that this alignment of responsible states that understand the
threat of extremism, including the threat of Iran, is a very good base from which to try and strengthen these democratic
forces in the Middle East, whether it's Lebanon or a democratic Palestine or in Iraq. And so I will spend a good deal of
time working to build trust and build confidence and build a sense of common interest among those responsible states on
an agenda for the Middle East. I think you start with your friends and you start with those who have common -- who see
their interests as -- see commonality of interest with your own. And I'm going to spend a good deal of time doing that.
And then I really do think that we should see if we can get the engagement of Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas
underway. They want to do it. We've been working with them on that. We need to help strengthen Mahmoud Abbas in terms of
his security forces, in terms of his political and economic foundation. And I think we need to explore how much faster
and further we can go to achieve the full range of goals in the roadmap.
QUESTION: Will you try to arrange a meeting, two-way or three-way?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I'm certainly encouraging and trying to help work to support a meeting between President Abbas and
Prime Minister Olmert. I would hope that would take place (inaudible). Olmert I think said that they'd like to do it
before the end of the year. That would be a really very good thing. I think we'll see what other meetings might take
place, but I'm certainly supportive of that and tried to help.
QUESTION: On Iran, do you think the latest version of the sanctions resolutions has any real teeth or is it value -- is
its value primarily as a symbol, a marker at this point in time?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I'd put it little different. First of all, I think that it has teeth. There will be certain
technologies and goods and activities that will be denied for Iran by the international community and that's a very good
thing. But it's also the case and -- but I would not call it symbolic -- I would say that it sets a different context
for dealing with Iran. It puts Iran in a category with very few countries, most of whom are on their way out of Chapter
7 sanctions. It puts Iran out there with countries that have generally reveled in their isolation, like North Korea.
This is not a very attractive place for a country that considers itself a serious state in international politics, which
is clearly a great culture, great people, has been an important power historically and here they will sit in Chapter 7
status in the international community. And I think that has all kinds of implications for how people deal with Iran, how
people invest in Iran, how people think about financial interaction with Iran and we're seeing it. We're seeing that
there is great hesitancy on the part of financial and commercial institutions to deal with an Iran which hadn't yet even
been put under Chapter 7. Now it will be under Chapter 7 and with the shadow of the future of potentially further
sanctions.
QUESTION: You said a little bit earlier today that you're confident you'll have Russia's support if -- but Russia hasn't
totally pledged at least from what I've read to do that. If they've all abstained, I mean, will this whole long process
of sort of dealing with them and you know, cajoling them along, will that have been worth it?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, we already have a resolution on Iran. Secondly, we had resolutions on Iran in the
IAEA several times. I am quite certain that if the Chapter 7 resolution goes into force, everybody will, in fact,
enforce it, whatever their stance in the vote. But the Russians say that they want to prevent the Iranians from
perfecting technologies that could lead to another nuclear weapon; they've said that. And I take them at their word and
I think that's why -- I think they will in the final analysis, I assume that they will reflect that in their support for
a resolution.
QUESTION: Has either Sergey Lavrov or anyone given you assurances that they win in fact vote for it?
SECRETARY RICE: No, no. We've not talked about it. It's all being negotiating in New York.
QUESTION: How are we doing on time?
STAFF: About 10 minutes.
SECRETARY RICE: Thank you for asking. (Laughter.)
QUESTION: You guys have me trained.
SECRETARY RICE: You’ve been with us a long time now.
QUESTION: On North Korea, you essentially said last month that it might not be worth having this round this quickly if
the North Koreans weren't ready to really do something. And the Japanese envoy said today that he thinks that the talks
are deadlocked and there's this whole thing of this chicken and the egg thing with the financial sanctions.
Was it a miscalculation to have the talks now?
SECRETARY RICE: No, I think -- first of all, I think it's -- we'll see what the North Koreans do, but I also know where
the other parties stand on what needs to be done. And there is unity among the other parties on the need for a concrete
outcome. It may take a little time to get there, but I think we -- if we don't, then we'll have to assess where we are
in the six-party process, but -- you know, they've been there a total of three days or something, four days.
And by the way, Christmas is coming and I do think we want to let people come home for Christmas. I don't really want
Chris Hill to have to stay in Beijing through Christmas, so I wouldn't be surprised if they take a break, but I think
everybody understands the importance of something concrete.
In terms of the financial sanctions, the -- of financial measures, the sanctions under 1718, this is simply a set of
steps that the United States would take in any circumstances where we have this kind of illegal activity. And we've made
a step toward the North Koreans to agree that this can be discussed in a working group. As I understand it, the working
group had very good sessions led by the Treasury Department in Beijing. I think they'll probably have another session
pretty soon.
But what it needs to lead to is for the North Koreans to stop engaging in illicit activities. That's how we would
resolve that.
QUESTION: It seems, though, that the North Koreans said, okay, you know, we'll come back to the talks as long as we get
to -- also talk about the financial strictures, but that once having arrived, merely talking about it isn't good enough.
I mean --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, we said we would talk about it ages ago, so this has been on the table for a long
time now, a long time. I'm not surprised that the North Koreans would come back and make this argument, but it's not
going to hold with other parties. And that's the advantage of a six-party framework rather than a bilateral framework.
Now we are prepared to talk about the BDA situation. That's why we have a working group. We are prepared to come to --
to try to resolve it, but resolving it is -- it has to be understood in the context of what caused it in the first
place, which is these illicit activities.
QUESTION: Are you confident at this point that North Korea does eventually intend to dismantle its nuclear program?
SECRETARY RICE: I think that's what we're testing. No, I don't have any reason to believe that, which is why it's
important for North Korea to -- particularly after the nuclear test, to make a concrete step that demonstrates their
commitment to denuclearization. They're signed on to denuclearization from the September 19th agreement. We'll see
whether or not they follow through.
QUESTION: What would satisfy you as its first step to show that kind of --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, there are several ideas that the negotiators are talking about, so I think I won't get into what
they're talking about in the negotiations.
QUESTION: On Sudan.
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: Andrew Natsios just --
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: -- briefed you. Are you discouraged with that report? I mean, I think there was some thought that perhaps on
this trip, he might have some breakthrough.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, the two-year extension for NGOs is a good thing. That was a very important achievement because
they now don't operate under (inaudible). But the Sudanese Government has not been -- well, it has disappointed the
international community several times here. And the one thing that they asked for, that Bashir asked for -- that
President Bashir asked for is a presidential statement reaffirming Abuja -- sorry, reaffirming Addis. That presidential
statement has been passed.
Now we'll see if the Sudanese Government is going to react. We'll then have to assess where we are and what other
options we have.
QUESTION: Would you support this idea of a no-fly zone as the British have suggested?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, it's an idea that has been there and -- you know, we're going to look at all ideas.
QUESTION: Here's a bit of a wildcard. I was watching the --
SECRETARY RICE: No way. (Laughter.)
QUESTION: Don't worry. (Laughter.)
SECRETARY RICE: (Inaudible?)
QUESTION: No, no, and it's not a Peter MacKay question, no.
SECRETARY RICE: (Inaudible) today?
QUESTION: She emailed me to ask if I was going. She got stuck in the office, but she wanted to know if I was -- she
wanted to know how it went.
MR. MCCORMACK: Disappointed because she wasn't here.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, I was really looking forward --
QUESTION: I told her he looked good. Watching the coverage of Barack Obama's possible run -- this is a wildcard.
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: I wonder if you think America is ready to vote for and support a black President.
SECRETARY RICE: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I think so. I have always thought -- I thought for a long time, actually,
that in fact this was a barrier that an individual could certainly overcome. I think we shouldn't be naïve. Race is
still an issue in America. You know, when a person walks into a room, race is evident. It's something that is, I think,
going to be with us for a very, very long time. I don't think we are colorblind and I don't think we're going to be
colorblind, probably, in my lifetime.
But I think we have become capable of looking past color to see capability and to see merit and to overcome stereotypes
and to be able to, therefore, trust somebody's abilities and that's what you -- what people look for, I think, when they
are looking for a President. And I think we've overcome, in some sense, in terms of race, but -- you know, we don't come
from the same set of values and we don't come from -- I think Americans have been -- most Americans, a great majority of
Americans have overcome that.
So yes, I think a black person can be elected President and I think they'll probably, in the final analysis, be judged
on all the things that Americans ultimately end up making their decisions on: Do I agree with this person; do I share
this person's basic values; am I comfortable with this person who's going to make decisions when I'm not in the room
that are very consequential. And so I think those are going to be all the same questions to like, you know, this is said
of -- does this person add up to someone who I want to see in my home every night on TV and who's going to fit in the
Oval Office? And I think that that -- it will really be the same questions and while I think in the initial stages just
like when somebody walks in a room, you do see black or you do see white in America. I think it is less and less a
barrier to seeing who that person really is.
QUESTION: If not you, should -- would -- do you think Colin Powell should run?
SECRETARY RICE: (Laughter.) I'm not going to give Colin any advice and he's not going to give me any advice on this one.
QUESTION: Well, he's already been giving you a little advice lately. (Laughter.)
SECRETARY RICE: Not (inaudible.)
QUESTION: Okay. Anything I left out?
SECRETARY RICE: No, good questions.
QUESTION: Good.
SECRETARY RICE: All right, Merry Christmas.
QUESTION: I hear you'll be down in --
MR. MCCORMACK: DOD.
SECRETARY RICE: Oh, DOD, yeah.
MR. MCCORMACK: Bob Gates and the Secretary's going to get together and do --
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, you want to talk about that a little more?
QUESTION: Yeah, absolutely.
SECRETARY RICE: First of all, Bob and I go back quite a long way from the National Security Council days, Soviet
specialist days. I do think it's -- I don't know, you could probably check, but I wonder if this is the first time that
the Secretary of Defense is a former college president and the Secretary of State is a former college provost. Probably
have an interesting combination.
We had dinner the other night. We, I think, we'll do that very often, but we're also starting, in the first week in
January, going to arrange a series of quite long and extensive joint briefings with our key advisors on issues where we
overlap. I think we'll have an extensive hearing on Afghanistan, have an extensive one on some of the Africa issues,
Sudan, Somalia. So we plan to do this on a fairly regular basis, but we are going to try to do some of the most
important and consequential areas right up front.
And we think this will be a way to keep what has been good coordination between Defense and State, but to enhance that
because increasingly, you know, this continuum between what the diplomats do and what the military do is a continuum.
It's not bipolar. And so we've talked about ways to enhance that cooperation.
QUESTION: Is it fair to say that's kind of getting a fresh start with State and DOD?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, State and DOD have been fine. We've had good cooperation. And so -- but it is an opportunity to,
with him coming on, to have the teams together to take a hard look at some of the areas that are particularly
challenging. And I think that'll be useful.
QUESTION: The whole idea that his eyes on Iraq could push things back and delay Bush's speech and so forth, it didn't
really seem to materialize until about a week ago or so. Is it your sense that he's now kind of -- I don't know,
double-checking or sort of back-reading what the recommendations are?
SECRETARY RICE: No, I just think he needed to go out and have a chance to go to Iraq and talk to (inaudible). It takes a
little time. You know, he's been outside, now he's inside, and I think the President wanted the full -- his full
experience and understanding. I don't -- he'll be back and they'll have a chance to talk, we'll all have a chance to
talk. I don't know quite what the President will decide, but the President needs to take his time and review all this.
He needs to take his time and have confidence himself, conviction himself that the course that he's going to recommend,
the course adjustments that he's going to recommend are really the right ones.
And so whatever time that it takes I think we -- the President needs to take it. Now that it's, right? Okay.
QUESTION: Merry Christmas.
2006/1137
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