Interview With Sean Hannity of Fox News Channel's Hannity and Colmes
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Washington, DC
April 14, 2005
(10:40 a.m. EDT)
MR. HANNITY: Madame Secretary, good to see you again.
SECRETARY RICE: Pleasure to be with you, Sean.
MR. HANNITY: Now, are you as big a baseball fan and are you going to be a Nationals fan like you are --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I'm going to be a Nationals fan. I'm not as big a baseball fan as I am a football fan, but
there's a new team in Washington and I'm going to be right there for them.
MR. HANNITY: Today's the day so it's not going to be the baseball commissioner. We're still focused on the NFL.
SECRETARY RICE: Still focused on the NFL. That's right.
MR. HANNITY: Why don't you tell us about this American contractor that's being held hostage. He had a gun to his head.
America's been watching.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, we're obviously following it very closely. We are doing everything that we can to try and deal
with this in a way that is safe for him. It's a very difficult situation but we have very good cooperation on the ground
with the right Iraqi officials and with others. We're working very hard on this.
MR. HANNITY: In principle, you can never negotiate with hostage-takers. Why?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, it's U.S. policy that we do not because it only encourages terrorists to do this again.
MR. HANNITY: Let's talk about, you know, earlier this week, there had been so much good news coming out of Iraq. The
insurgency, especially after the elections, had almost dropped off the map. There was talk earlier this week also of the
possibility our troops can come home much earlier. It's been a tough 24 hours. Where do you see Iraq now in terms of the
timetable and where we're going?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, again, we have been very careful not to set timetables but to talk about success strategy, not an
exit strategy. And nothing has changed in that regard except that I think we're beginning to see now elements that show
that the policies are working. The Iraqis are taking more responsibility for their own security and that's going to
increase as those forces become better trained.
Clearly, the Iraqis made a huge step forward with the January 30th elections. I've said that the Iraqi people faced
terrorism and faced it down because they said we are not going to be held fearful. And as a matter of fact, the fact
that they voted in large numbers is terrific. And they now have a political process underway. You defeat an insurgency
politically, and they now have a political process where people's interests can be accommodated.
We're still going to have bad days, like the last 24 hours, because the terrorists and the insurgents are still going
to try to derail the process. But every day that Iraq is making progress on its political process is a bad day for
terrorism.
MR. HANNITY: We see a lot of movement in the region. When you look at the events that have been unfolding in Syria,
democratization to some extent in Egypt, changes, a shift even in Saudi Arabia, movement in the Palestinian-Israeli
conflict. When you look at all of these things, do you believe this is a direct result of the United States actions,
specifically with its allies in Iraq?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, clearly, something has changed. And when the United States and its allies were able to first
liberate Afghanistan, then liberate the people of Iraq, it fell then to the people of the region to take advantage of
the opening that was created by that, and they're taking advantage of that opening.
And, Sean, what the American President can do is to change the sense of what's possible in the world. It's not that the
United States can make decisions for the people who are fighting for their freedom. It's not that the United States can
bring freedom to a people. They have to do that themselves. But the American President can change the sense of what is
possible and clearly what seemed impossible a few months ago now seems almost inevitable for this region. So that's
really what our politics are about.
MR. HANNITY: Can I ask you this? In the short time now that you've been Secretary of State, you've traveled
extensively, you've met with many of the world's leaders, you've had an opportunity to speak with them. There was so
much antipathy, animosity, even hostility, towards the United States over the issue with Iraq, and very specifically
with our European partners and allies.
Do you see that that animosity still exists? Do you see -- is there a warming of relations? I saw a picture of you and
Jacques Chirac. How are things in that regard? Still difficult days ahead?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, of course, we will have our disagreements, even with our best friends. But what we have done is
to reunite the democratic nations, the great alliance that brought down Communism, around a sense of common values
again. There are always going to be disagreements on policy, but we've somehow seemed to forget that we all have an
obligation as countries that are lucky enough, as peoples that are lucky enough to be on the right side of freedom's
divide, to work hard on behalf of those who are on the wrong side of freedom's divide.
And the transatlantic alliance in particular has now, I think, seen the ability, the importance of trying to see the
spread of freedom and democracy into places where it has never been. And that has served to unite us.
MR. HANNITY: Let me ask you, yesterday the Administration questioned Israel, in particular their urgent warning on the
advancement of Iran's nuclear weapon program, saying that it was unlikely -- the Administration -- the State Department
now saying it's unlikely that Iran will have the bomb in five years. It's also reported that the Prime Minister of
Israel told Vice President Cheney that the program was at the point of no return. There seems to be a disparity.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, no, we had good discussions with the Israelis and I just want to note we have continual
discussions with the Israelis about a number of security issues, including concerns about the Iranian program. What
happened is that we all agree that this is a program that needs to be dealt with. I think it's not wise to talk about
precisely when we think the Iranians will have this or that, what lines they have crossed, because, frankly, a lot of
this is not clear.
But what we can do is to say that it is a problem that needs to be dealt with and I notice that in Prime Minister
Sharon's remarks in an interview, he said that what they really are looking for is an international effort to make sure
that the Iranians do not develop a nuclear weapon, and that's what we are trying to do in supporting the EU-3 diplomacy.
I would note that the Russians, who just a few years ago didn't seem as concerned about the Iranian program, now even in
the civilian nuclear reactor that they are going to build for the Iranians have tried to build in safeguards by taking
back fuel, not allowing the Iranians to enrich and reprocess.
This is really about will Iran have the technological capability to build a nuclear weapon through enrichment and
reprocessing, because that's the -- making certain that they do not is the only way that you can be sure that the
Iranians will not.
MR. HANNITY: You once said, though, and it was fairly recently, that we must not under-react. The State Department
yesterday was saying there is no reason for Iran to be enriching uranium and that it should be suspended in terms of a
practice. When we go back and look at after the first Gulf War, I think, the administration and other countries were
fairly surprised at just how advanced Saddam Hussein's programs were. Can we be underestimating, perhaps, where Iran is
at this particular time and what -- that would be a very grave threat obviously to world security.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, because you can never know, you're always better to try and resolve the problem as quickly as you
can. Now, we have every reason to believe that the Iranians are in suspension right now; that appears to be the case.
Iran is a somewhat more transparent society than Iraq, although I don't want to overstate that.
But what we're trying to do with the Europeans, with the Russians and with others, is to convince the Iranians that it
is in their interest, sooner rather than later, to demonstrate that they are prepared to live up to their international
obligations not to seek a nuclear weapon under cover of civilian nuclear power development. The diplomacy, we believe,
has a good chance to work but, of course, we reserve the ability to go to the Security Council if it doesn't.
MR. HANNITY: Prime Minister Sharon said that -- and he was very specific because he was asked about this, that Israel
was not planning an attack on Iran. Now, when we go back to 1981, when Israel attacked their nuclear reactor, there was
worldwide condemnation. The United States condemned that action. I think in retrospect, we could all probably agree --
well, maybe I should ask you. In retrospect, was that the right move in 1981, even though the United States at the time
condemned the action of Israel?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think that it's hard to go back and judge but, obviously, Saddam Hussein's regime was seeking
nuclear weapons and something needed to be done about that.
We've learned a lot of lessons since then. We've learned not to let these programs get out of control. I was asked
yesterday about the North Korean program. Well, the North Korean program has been developing since probably the late
1960s and the international community did not get itself organized in time to prevent the North Koreans from being very
far ahead.
With the Iranians, we have to learn that lesson and there has to be absolutely a strong, united international front
that says to the Iranians you cannot seek a nuclear weapon and be a member of the international community.
MR. HANNITY: If we were to find out -- and Prime Minister Sharon has said, he used the words he thinks it's "to the
point of no return." If we were to find out -- and there's been a lot of hostility on the Iranian side that, at least
publicly, the posture is that they're not in the desirous mode to negotiate at any particular point, would we have to
recognize that Israel may have to consider the possibility, once again, of striking, considering what a chilly scenario
it would be to have a country like Iran with a nuclear weapon?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I don't think we need to speculate about this and what we need to do is to pay attention to what
we are doing now. And we had the discussions with the Israelis about this. The Iranians must not be allowed to get the
technological capability to build a nuclear weapon. Everybody understands the destabilizing effect that an Iranian
nuclear weapon would have on what is already a very troubled region.
And I believe we've got a good chance to do this diplomatically. We do have the Security Council as a next means if we
need to do that. But the Iranians are going to have to be convinced that they face a choice between convincing the world
that they're not going to go for a nuclear weapon and isolation. So those are the choices.
MR. HANNITY: Europe's solution -- Britain's solution, France's solution, Germany's solution -- is to offer economic
incentives. It seems like we went down that road once before with Kim Jong-il in North Korea. Didn't work particularly
well there. Would that be a mistake?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, one of the problems with the 1994 agreement with North Korea is that North Korea really was
already very developed on the nuclear side and it was a freeze of North Korean programs where the benefits were up front
and the North Korean actions were later.
We have a much better situation with North Korea now where we are, even though the North Koreans continue to develop,
apparently, their capability and continue to try to remind the world of that, they are now in a six-party framework in
which they have to face not just the United States but also the Russians, the Japanese, the Chinese and the South
Koreans. I know that, Sean, that when the South Korean President was in Germany he made clear that full-scale economic
relations with North Korea really couldn't proceed until there was a cessation and dismantling of the nuclear program in
North Korea.
So we have to, in these difficult situations, mobilize international opinion and international efforts to keep these
states from developing nuclear weapons.
MR. HANNITY: Let's talk about John Bolton for a minute. He came under a lot of fire for suggesting if we lost ten
stories of the UN, it wouldn't make a bit of a difference. He said the U.S. should be the one permanent member. There
was a lot of talk and discussion yesterday about his temperament, especially with dealing with fellow employees. What
are your thoughts on him?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, we all use colorful language from time to time.
MR. HANNITY: I've been guilty of that.
(Laughter.)
SECRETARY RICE: John is going to be a terrific Ambassador to the United Nations. He is -- he cares, he's committed, he
is a great diplomat. I have watched John get in place the Proliferation Security Initiative, negotiate the Moscow Treaty
that cut American and Russian nuclear arsenals. I watched him create the Global Partnership that has us now able to
leverage a lot of help to deal with dismantling the old Soviet nuclear arsenal.
This is a very good diplomat and he has a lot of people who have worked for him who are loyal to him. He's a good
manager. He's going to be very, very good at this. And, you know, we're very respectful of the fact that the Senate his
its own deliberative process, but this is the time when we need a Permanent Representative at the United Nations because
there is a lot that is going on there.
MR. HANNITY: You know, let's look at the UN as a body for just a second here. The UN puts countries like Syria, Iran
and Libya on their Human Rights Commission. I don't think they were particularly effective in Rwanda or the Sudan. In 12
years, 17 resolutions. Totally ineffective. Somewhat impotent as it relates to Iraq. Oil-for-Food. There's been
corruption of many of the officials there. A lot of criticism is warranted. There are even a lot of Americans that hope
that maybe we don't need to be as closely associated with that body as we presently are. Aren't these legitimate
criticisms? Doesn't that next ambassador need to seek out serious reform?
SECRETARY RICE: Absolutely. There are legitimate criticisms. In fact, some of them have been made by the UN itself at
this point, after this high-level panel. There's no doubt that this is an organization that needs updating and reforming
in order to be effective. And we are a founding member of the United Nations. We shouldn't abandon it. We should make it
a stronger instrument.
But that's going to require some tough choices. It's going to require management reforms in the Secretariat and in some
of the UN agencies. It's going to require that the member-states are much more vigilant than they were during the
Oil-for-Food episode, which really was a terrible scandal. It's a terrible thing that was done to the Iraqi people. It
needs reform on many, many fronts and someone like John Bolton, who has spent a lot of time thinking about this, who was
an Assistant Secretary for International Organization in the Administration, needs to go there and lead those reforms.
MR. HANNITY: Let me ask you, you recently met with Mexican President Vicente Fox. And you know the Mexican Government
put out this travel guide offering tips to people on how to break American laws, not respect the sovereignty of the
United States of America. I interviewed Vicente Fox once a couple of years ago and he wouldn't admit that there was even
an illegal immigrant problem in the United States.
I understand the desire of people who want to have jobs and so on. The estimates by our own border patrol are they
catch about 1.1 million people entering the country illegally a year. They think they get one person for every four or
five that attempts to cross, and there's a lot of people who make it across.
How did your discussions go with him and how firm should we be considering national security issues? If somebody can
get over because they want a job, similarly can't somebody get over that perhaps doesn't have the best intentions of the
American people at hand? Shouldn't we demand that Mexico really step up on that issue?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, we certainly have the right to tell Mexico that they need to respect America's laws and that
these are borders that -- about which we have laws and we expect them to be respected.
We've actually had good cooperation with the Mexicans, better cooperation under the Fox government than at any other
time, but there is a lot more to be done. The President has said, and as the former Governor of Texas this is an issue
he knows very well, that we do need to reform our immigration laws so that we have policies that are sustainable, that
match willing workers with willing employee -- employers so that you're not facing the situation of the confusion of
people who are trying to find work, work that very often Americans will not do, with people who are trying to come in
and hurt us.
We've done a lot of work on smart borders technology to let the free flow of legal people and goods go through while
perhaps doing a better job of keeping people who would hurt us from moving forward. But this is a very big and difficult
issue. But that Mexico should be respectful of our laws, absolutely.
MR. HANNITY: All right. Last question. I'm not going to ask you the running for office question.
SECRETARY RICE: Thank you.
(Laughter.)
MR. HANNITY: I'm probably the only person but I think I know the answer here.
First of all, I noticed as soon you became Secretary of State that there were a lot of comments on your fashion.
SECRETARY RICE: I know.
MR. HANNITY: Did you ever think you'd become a fashion trendsetter? And what are differences between you and, say,
Secretary Powell?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, no, I didn't think about becoming a fashion trendsetter. I have loved to shop since I was a
little girl, and if the truth be known, that's been a passion of mine right alongside football for a long time.
MR. HANNITY: That's a good combination.
SECRETARY RICE: Secretary Powell did a terrific job in this job. He's a good friend, you know. We've talked frequently
since I took this job. I had dinner with Colin and Alma Powell. We've been longtime friends. He did a terrific job here.
The times were different. You know, we were in a time in which we had to make a lot of really tough decisions, where we
had to fight two wars to liberate 50 million people, where those were not always popular decisions and where he did a
really fine job of representing American interests during what was a really hard time.
We're seeing now the benefits of the hard work that that team did and now trying to build on that work to live -- to
leave a sustainable, peaceful environment. We now are more like the period after World War II -- '47, '48 -- where we're
institutionalizing now a lot of those changes and harvesting some of the good decisions that were made during that time.
So the times are different but I have enormous respect for what Colin Powell achieved when he was here.
MR. HANNITY: Madame Secretary, we always appreciate you being with us. Thank you very much.
SECRETARY RICE: Thank you.
2005/418
Released on April 14, 2005