Watch latest PMQs - 12 February
Prime Minister Tony Blair has said the alternative to war is 'full and complete co-operation with the UN inspectors' by
Iraq as set out in the UN resolution.
The Prime Minister added:
"...if that full and complete co-operation is not there, we have to find other means of enforcing the will of the UN.
Otherwise, the threat to this country that people do accept is present will carry on in existence."
Mr Blair made the comments at the latest session of Prime Minister's Questions in Parliament.
HANSARD FOLLOWS
PRIME MINISTER
The Prime Minister was asked—
Engagements
Q1. [97052] Mr. Tim Boswell (Daventry): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 February.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Tony Blair): This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to
my duties in the House, I will have further such meetings later today.
Mr. Boswell : It is a time of great anxiety at home and abroad, and we have an absolute need for frankness and
accountability. In the light of today's revelations of ministerial pressure on the independent Audit Commission, which
comes on top of last week's revelations about a questionable security dossier on Iraq, will the Prime Minister issue a
simple and binding instruction that the spinning has to stop?
The Prime Minister: On the document, I point out to the hon. Gentleman that the part of the document that dealt with
intelligence was indeed from intelligence sources, as the document stated. It is important that that
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is underlined. Of course, especially at the moment, it is important that we give accurate information to people, and the
information given was accurate.
Q2. [97053] Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley): I wonder whether my right hon. Friend is aware that the good constituents of
Chorley wonder whether, if the report from Dr. Blix on Friday states that more time is needed or more inspectors are
needed, the Prime Minister will support that view and try to ensure that a peaceful solution is reached.
The Prime Minister: Of course we will take full account of anything that Dr. Blix says. I point out that he has said
that the issue is not the need for more inspectors but the failure of Iraq to co-operate. I wish to make the point to my
hon. Friend and, through him, to his constituents, that the issue of time for the inspectors is an issue of the time to
make a judgment about whether Iraq is co-operating. If Iraq is co-operating, the inspectors can have as much time as
they need and want to do their work. If Iraq is not co-operating, we have to be careful that we do not get sucked back
into the situation we had in the 1990s, when the inspectors were in Iraq for years but, for example, the Iraqis denied
the existence of their biological weapons programme, refused to co-operate with the inspectors, and said that it was all
an invention of the CIA and the British security services. It was only when Saddam's son-in-law defected—he was later
murdered by Saddam—that we discovered the existence of the programme. I agree that we have to take full account of what
the inspectors say, but the issue that we come back to time and again, in order to avoid a conflict, is whether Iraq
will co-operate fully or not.
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green): NATO has been the cornerstone of British security and ensured
peace in Europe for decades. Now France, Germany and Belgium have plunged NATO into one of its greatest crises, will the
Prime Minister join me in condemning the action of those Governments, and will he tell the House what he intends to do
to ensure that the Turks receive the protection to which they are entitled?
The Prime Minister: Of course we were one of the 16 members of NATO who wanted Turkey to be given that protection fully.
Negotiations and discussions are going on in NATO at the moment and I hope that they are successful. I hope that we are
able to fulfil our obligations to Turkey, because that is important for Turkey and for the NATO alliance.
Mr. Duncan Smith: The French and German actions have clearly undermined NATO but, when it comes to the UN and Iraq, it
is absolutely right to work for a second resolution. Given that the Labour party chairman has today described the threat
to Heathrow as being on the same scale as 11 September, will the Prime Minister agree with me that our security and the
disarmament of Saddam Hussein cannot be held to ransom by a French veto in the Security Council?
The Prime Minister: It is precisely for that reason that I think that it is important that we make sure that the
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will of the UN is upheld. On each occasion, we should go back to resolution 1441, which says that Iraq should have a
final opportunity to disarm itself through the weapons inspectors, and that it has to co-operate fully. If Iraq is in
breach of that resolution, I believe that action should follow. However, I still believe that it is possible that we
shall attain a second resolution in the UN. I believe that the matter should be resolved through the UN. After all, the
original instruction given to Saddam was an instruction from the UN.
Mr. Duncan Smith: Given the events of the past couple of weeks, and the different world views of France and Germany,
what more would it take for the Prime Minister to reconsider his deep commitment to a single European foreign policy and
army?
The Prime Minister: I thought that we would get to that sooner or later. I think that it would be immensely damaging to
allow the debate about European defence to go on without British input. The most disastrous policy that this country
could adopt is the empty-chair, opt-out policy in Europe that is the policy of the Opposition. As a result of the
measures that we secured in negotiating European defence, there can be no European defence initiative in any field
without the unanimous consent of all countries. That, therefore, gives us a veto over any initiative. It is important
that we play our full part in European defence. Otherwise, the consequence would be, not that there was no European
defence policy, but that it would exist without British input. That would be bad for Britain, NATO and Europe.
Q3. [97054] Mr. Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central): Does my right hon. Friend accept that the British public remains
largely sceptical about the case for military action against Iraq, but that they believe that the Americans will take
military action almost come what may? Will he tell the House and the country why we should believe that a war now will
make peace in the middle east more likely and in the end make Britain less of a target for terrorists?
The Prime Minister: I think that the best answer is to go back to first principles again. We decided to go through the
UN to deal with this matter—and this is the absolute answer to those who say that we were hell bent on war, come what
may—so that we could get a UN resolution in order to avoid war. If Saddam had complied fully with the resolution passed
last November, conflict would not even be an issue today. The choice, in the end, is for Saddam. However, if we fail to
implement resolution 1441, and if we lack the determination and resolution to make sure that that mandate is carried,
the consequence will be that Saddam is free to develop weapons of mass destruction. Also, there will be an increasing
risk that the threat of those weapons of mass destruction and the existing terrorist threat will join together. This
country will then be less secure and safe. It is best to deal with this through the UN but, as I have said from the
outset, the UN has to be the way to deal the matter, not the way to avoid dealing with it.
Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Inverness, West): As the questions from the hon. Members for
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Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) and for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) made clear, every measure of public opinion shows that
people are not persuaded of the case for the course of action being followed, despite all the persuasive efforts of the
Prime Minister and the Government. Why does the Prime Minister think that that remains the case?
The Prime Minister: First, I think that those surveys of public opinion will be different if there is a second UN
resolution, and I point out also that we are not yet in conflict. Secondly, however, I think that people do believe that
Saddam is an evil man and a dictator, and that there is a threat to this country from his accumulated weapons of mass
destruction, but that they ask, reasonably and rightly, whether there is not an alternative to war. The answer to that
question is that there is an alternative to war and it is set out in the UN resolution. That alternative is full and
complete co-operation with the UN inspectors. However, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept that, if that
full and complete co-operation is not there, we have to find other means of enforcing the will of the UN. Otherwise, the
threat to this country that people do accept is present will carry on in existence.
Mr. Kennedy: On the latter point, could the Prime Minister therefore be more explicit than he was to the hon. Member for
Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) a few minutes ago? If Dr. Blix requests more time on Friday, will the Prime Minister actively and
publicly speak out in favour of that?
The Prime Minister: As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) a moment or two ago, of course what
Dr. Blix says is important and we will take full account of it, but the judgment that has to be made in the end is one
by the Security Council as to whether there is full and complete co-operation by Iraq with the United Nations
inspectors. I believe that those inspectors, if they were given that co-operation, could do their work very easily; but
if they are not given that co-operation, surely, the hon. Gentleman must see the danger that we get sucked back into
delays of months and then years, with the inspectors playing a game of hide and seek with Saddam, and we are unable then
to shut down the weapons of mass destruction programme that he accepts, that I accept and that everyone accepts is a
threat and a danger to the world.
Q4. [97055] Peter Bradley (The Wrekin): Does my right hon. Friend not agree that differential student fees will help to
create differential universities, awarding differential degrees to differential graduates with differential job
prospects? If he does, can he tell me how that will fulfil our pledge to ensure equality of opportunity through our
education system?
The Prime Minister: There are two separate issues. First, I would simply say to my hon. Friend that, of course, there is
differential funding now for different universities. So, for example, Oxford or Cambridge will receive four times the
amount of public funding as, let us say, Wolverhampton university. What is important is that, if those universities want
even more money, it should not come simply from the taxpayer. The second
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thing I would say to him is that, since we know that 90 per cent. of young people in sixth forms go on to university,
the absolute keys to access are the measures to improve standards in our secondary schools that my right hon. Friend the
Secretary of State for Education and Skills is taking.
Q5. [97056] Mr. Jonathan Sayeed (Mid-Bedfordshire): There is no doubt about the danger posed by Saddam Hussein or about
the deceit that he is prepared to practice, but is the Prime Minister certain that we are not allowing frustration and
impatience to cloud our judgment, for what new threat, proven threat or imminent threat is there to justify war?
The Prime Minister: There is the threat that we have identified in the resolution last year and, indeed, for the past 12
years, and there are two ways of dealing with it. [Interruption.] Someone shouts out the word "containment". When we
look at the issue and the moral background to the decisions that have to be taken, I agree that, before we take the
decision to go to war, the morality of that should weigh heavily on our conscience because innocent people die as well
as the guilty in a war, but let us look at the morality of the present policy that we have towards Iraq and the policy
that we have had for the past 12 years—a policy of sanctions that, because of the way that Saddam has implemented those
sanctions, leaves Iraq in this state: with 130 deaths per 1,000 children under the age of 5, with 60 per cent. of the
population on food aid, with half the Iraqis in rural areas having no access to safe water and with thousands of people
imprisoned or killed every year as a result of Saddam's regime. The fact is that the only—[Interruption.] I am sorry;
the only alternative to disarmament by the United Nations is that we keep sanctions in place year on year, and I am
simply saying that that is also a moral choice with bad and devastating consequences for the Iraqi people.
Q6. [97057] Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East): I apologise to the Prime Minister for distracting him from
international matters, but he is aware of the campaign that has been run by the all-party group for haemophilia and the
Haemophilia Society to get recombinant treatment for all haemophiliacs in the United Kingdom. Can he inform the House
whether the Government have reached a decision and, if so, what it is?
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises a very important issue, and he will be aware that the Government have now
allocated somewhere in the region of just under £90 million for synthetic clotting factors to help those with the
condition of haemophilia. That will be rolled out across the country in the months to come, and it will make a
considerable difference to the treatment of that condition throughout the country.
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green): When the Prime Minister said that he would cut by half the number
of people seeking asylum in this country by September, was that an aspiration or a firm pledge?
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The Prime Minister: It was a firm commitment, of course.
Mr. Duncan Smith: On Friday, the Prime Minister said that his new asylum target was a pledge, although I see that he has
now changed that; on Saturday, the Home Office said that it was undeliverable; and on Monday, his own spokesman from
Downing street called it an aspiration—and all because this was another policy given to the Prime Minister by Alastair
Campbell as he walked into the television studio. Why does the Government's asylum policy change every time the Prime
Minister goes into a television studio to do an interview?
The Prime Minister: As I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, having said that we will cut it by
half by September, whatever it is called, we will be held to account for it—and so we should be. However, let me point
out to him that what he is saying now is exactly the ridicule that he heaped on the street crime initiative. We remember
at the time that that was described by the shadow Home Secretary as not having a prospect of being achieved. I might
remind him today that street crime is 20 per cent. down on last year, and 33 per cent. down in London. The right hon.
Gentleman will be eating his words on asylum too.
Mr. Duncan Smith: Violent crime up, burglaries up and gun crime doubled since this Government took over—that is not much
of a record. The Prime Minister's asylum policy is in a complete shambles. We all know that. He scrapped the white list,
then reintroduced it. He introduced vouchers, then scrapped them. He scrapped benefit changes, then reintroduced them.
The last time the Prime Minister went on television, he said that he would renegotiate the convention on human rights,
but his Home Secretary turned round and said that he could not. All the while, the number of asylum seekers is rising.
It has reached 100,000 a year. We are now taking more than any other country in Europe. Instead of getting on
television, why does the Prime Minister not just get on with his job?
The Prime Minister: We shall have to see. We can have this conversation again in June when the figures for the first
quarter come out, and we can have it again in November when the September figures come out. The measures that we
introduced last year, which toughen up the asylum procedures and which were opposed by the Conservative party every step
of the way, are already making a difference. However, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman entirely: the question will
be whether the commitment is met or not. We shall wait and see.
Q7. [97058] Kevin Brennan (Cardiff, West): What does the Prime Minister think of a system that encouraged, and in many
cases compelled, hundreds of former workers from Allied Steel and Wire Ltd. in Cardiff and Sheerness to contribute to
their occupational pension scheme, and that now leaves them facing the prospect of receiving little or nothing in
return? Will he promise the House that he will consider early-day motion 710, which
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is in my name and which contains proposals to help those workers? Instead of security and fairness in retirement, they
face insecurity and injustice.
The Prime Minister: I will certainly study carefully the early-day motion to which my hon. Friend refers. He will know
that this is a serious situation for his constituents. I understand that he has had a meeting with my right hon. Friend
the Minister about it. There is a proposal in the Green Paper to increase to 100 per cent. the compensation given in
circumstances where there has been dishonesty in relation to a pension fund. We are also looking at discontinuance
payments as well, as part of a series of measures to protect people in the situation in which my hon. Friend's
constituents find themselves. We will do our best to help him resolve the particular case that he raises.
Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid-Kent): In a parliamentary written answer this week, the Ministry of Defence stated
that 10,400 of our service men and women who are deploying to the Gulf receive local overseas allowance in addition to
their salary. In a separate answer, it was said that single and married unaccompanied personnel lose 20 per cent. of
their living overseas allowance rate after the first 17 days, and married personnel lose 35 per cent. if their families
go home for more than 17 days. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is wholly wrong that members of our armed forces
should be penalised financially for service in the Gulf? Will he make a firm commitment to the House to stop that
penalisation?
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman that commitment, because we have to apply the
rules that have applied for many years in relation to this issue. I simply say to him that we will, of course, look at
whatever we can do to give our armed forces the protection that they need, but that has to be done within the overall
financial settlement of the Ministry of Defence.
Q8. [97059] Mr. Barry Gardiner (Brent, North): At a time when gun crime continues to rise across London, what lessons
does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister believe—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Let the hon. Gentleman be heard.
Mr. Gardiner: What lessons does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister believe should be learned from the successful
Operation Trident and the "not another drop" campaign in Brent, which have seen deaths from gun crime not happen for a
year and a half in that borough? Will he ensure that the use of automatic number plate registration piloted in Brent to
target known gangsters is adopted throughout the capital and, in particular, will he ensure that the Mayor's cameras—
Mr. Speaker: Order.
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that there has been a very successful operation in Brent
but it is obviously an operational
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matter for the Metropolitan Police Commissioner as to whether it is extended throughout the capital. My hon. Friend will
also know that we have a proposal, which I hope will be supported by the whole House, for anyone found in illegal
possession of a firearm to be given a mandatory five-year sentence.
Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton): On 3 February 2003 at column 22, the Prime Minister took personal
responsibility for placing the dodgy document on Iraq in the Library of the House. Yesterday, the Minister of State at
the Ministry of Defence told the House that it was only the middle part of the document that was the subject of a
postgraduate thesis. The middle part of the document—part 2—is the part on Iraq's network of intelligence and security,
so will the Prime Minister now tell the House who actually wrote part 2 of the document? Did he know who wrote it before
he placed it in the House of Commons? Will he now apologise to the House for putting something of such questionable
genesis before the House?
The Prime Minister: As I said in answer to the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell), the part of the document dealing
with intelligence was, indeed, taken from intelligence services information. Secondly, the whole document, as has been
accepted by everyone, is accurate.
Q9. [97060] Mr. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North): My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be aware that my
constituency of Ealing, North is extremely close to Heathrow airport and that the airport is the major employer of my
constituents. May I tell him that the current security operation at Heathrow airport has had a sobering effect on many
of us in west London and has brought home to us the imminence of the threat? Will he publicly record his appreciation of
the police, military and emergency services who have done an excellent job at Heathrow airport and continue to do so?
The Prime Minister: Obviously, we send our thanks and congratulations to the police, to our armed forces, to the
security services and to everyone who works on our behalf to protect us against the security threat that does not affect
just this country but, obviously, affects countries right across the world at the moment. It is worth pointing out that
terrorist arrests are not just happening in this country, but in virtually every European country and in many other
countries right across the whole of the globe. The result of that is that we occasionally have to take measures that we
prefer not to take, but that are necessary to give people the security and protection that they need.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan): May I return to the dossier—the one that Colin Powell said was a fine document and
the one that the Prime Minister tells us is accurate? Does the Prime Minister accept that it is not just a question
plagiarism but of changing key phrases? The phrase "Iraqi aid for opposition groups" in the original becomes "Iraqi
support for terrorist organisations" in the Government's Downing street document. What possible motivation is there for
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making these changes apart from propagandising to war? If the Prime Minister cannot be trusted on that, how can he be
trusted on anything?
The Prime Minister: First of all, let me just tell the hon. Gentleman, as I said a moment or two ago, the part of the
document that Colin Powell referred to about intelligence is, indeed, taken from intelligence sources and is entirely
accurate, as is the document as a whole. Secondly, in relation to Iraq's support for terrorist groups, he may not
believe that Iraq supports terrorist groups, but its support for such groups is well known and well documented quite
apart from any intelligence information that we put out. I am only sorry that he does not recognise that.
Q10. [97061] Linda Perham (Ilford, North): Following the crash at Chancery Lane on the Underground, what assurances can
my right hon. Friend give my constituents and the travelling public in London? When will the Central Line service
resume?
The Prime Minister: When it fully resumes is obviously a matter for the Underground and the Health and Safety Executive.
I hope that it will resume as quickly as possible. My hon. Friend will recognise that the work of the Underground and
the Health and Safety Executive is extremely important in providing protection for people. Accidents will occur from
time to time. But after what happened the Underground and the Health and Safety Executive have been able to make sure
that they have identified the cause and are now putting the matter right.
Q11. [97062] Tony Baldry (Banbury): Last week the Prime Minister said that there needed to be a humanitarian plan for
Iraq every bit as viable and as worked out as a military plan. How will aid for the Iraqi people be provided if the oil
for food programme is suspended? What preparations are in place for refugees in Iraq, bearing in mind that after the
Gulf war 1.8 million Iraqis went on the move, which was 18 times the number of people that fled Afghanistan?
The Prime Minister: These are precisely the issues that we are working on now with the United Nations and with our
allies. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, there is already a humanitarian situation in Iraq. Indeed, there has been
for many years, which is why 60 per cent. of the population are dependent on the oil for food programme. We would have
to make sure—and this is what we are working to do now—that in the event of any conflict we continue that programme and
that aid reaches the people that it needs to reach.
There are literally thousands of Iraqi refugees streaming across Europe even now. There are programmes in place, which
we have to make sure we keep in place. The whole purpose of the planning that we are doing, with our allies and the
United Nations, is to make sure that whatever the humanitarian consequences of any potential conflict they are dealt
with properly.
Q12. [97063] Mr. John MacDougall (Central Fife): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Anti-terrorism, Crime and
Security Act 2001 has proved to be
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a success? There is an increasing threat of terrorism, and I know that arrests have been made in Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Without the Act, I think the public would have felt less secure.
The Prime Minister: That is right. As a result of the measures that the security services have taken and as a result of
the new powers under the anti-terrorism and crime legislation, we have been able to arrest people and to detain without
trial those suspected of being engaged in conspiring to commit terrorist acts here. I would repeat the point I made a
few moments ago, that this is not simply happening in this country, but is happening right across Europe. There are
trials and arrests of suspected terrorists and arrests. We are working very closely with other European countries to
make sure that we achieve the maximum cooperation, since many of the cells in different European countries work
together.
Q13. [97064] Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge): Will the Prime Minister—[Interruption.] The Tory Benches are so
predictable.
Will the Prime Minister say that when considering the increase in pensions this year the Chancellor will take full
account of the rise that is occurring in council tax? Will he ensure that pensioners are not worse off?
The Prime Minister: Of course, pensioners will pay council tax as other people do, subject to the help that is given.
But the Government are giving an enormous amount of additional help to pensioners, not just in the winter allowance and
the free TV licences, not just in the minimum income guarantee, but in the pension credit that is coming in April, which
will mean that large
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numbers of pensioners are substantially better off if they have small amounts of savings. That will help them
considerably.
As for whatever the hon. Gentleman has done to offend the Conservative party, I should very much like to know, and I
suspect that I might support him on that.
Q14. [97065] Phil Sawford (Kettering): On Saturday I shall be taking part in a rally here in London with thousands of
other people who are deeply concerned about the prospect of war with Iraq. Does my right hon. Friend have a message for
the people on that rally, bearing in mind that many of them are his friends, not his enemies?
The Prime Minister: Yes, I do have a message for people on that rally who I am sure are motivated by the best intentions
and motives and believe sincerely in their views. My message is twofold: first, that we should be glad that we live in
this country and not in Iraq because people can come together and demonstrate their position on political issues of the
day; and secondly, as I said a moment or two ago, that the moral choice, which is the way that it is put by many of
those who intend to go on the march, has to weigh up the moral consequences of war. The alternative is to carry on with
the sanctions regime, which has resulted, because of how Saddam implements it, in thousands of people dying needlessly
in Iraq every year. In addition, of course, many thousands of people are political detainees or are executed as a result
of their political views. I hope that when people go on that march they at least recognise that those of us who take a
different view hold that view with as much conviction and sincerity as they hold their view.
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