Powell IV on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer
Interview on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer
Secretary Colin L. Powell Washington, DC December 29, 2002
MR. BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, thanks once again for joining us. The issue at hand right now, there seems to be a crisis
between the United States, on the one hand, and its allies, and North Korea. But you're apparently refusing to say this
is a crisis.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I don't like the word "crisis." It suggests we're about to move forces or there's a war about
to break out, and that's not the case at all. We have a very serious situation which are treating as a serious
situation. North Korea, notwithstanding its obligations under the 1994 Agreed Framework, started a second production
system for the development of nuclear weapons, enriching uranium.
We think that's very serious. We took it to the international community. We took it to the North Koreans. They admitted
it. Having admitted that they were in violation of their agreement, said, well, so what? And then, now they have decided
to come and get in violation of their obligations under the Agreed Framework by kicking the inspectors out of the
Yongbyon plutonium facility and also removing all the seals and starting that reactor up.
So these are two acts of misbehavior on the part of the North Korean regime. And what we are doing is working with our
friends and allies, who have an even greater equity in this matter than we do, and talking with the South Koreans, the
Japanese, the Russians, the Chinese, the European Union, the United Nations -- all of us coming together to make the
case to North Korea that this will not accomplish anything that will be of benefit to your nation and we will not be
scared into making concessions to you or appeasing you in some way.
MR. BLITZER: But this seems so frightening. This is one of the members of the "axis of evil". It's a Stalinist regime,
unpredictable. And you are now acknowledging they probably already have two nuclear bombs and they might be able to
build a lot more.
SECRETARY POWELL: Don't be quite so breathless. They've had two nuclear weapons, we believe, for some time. It is not
something that we have suddenly discovered. We have always attributed this capability to them. Our intelligence
community believes they probably had enough material to fabricate two weapons and they may well have these two weapons.
If they start this reactor back up and if they go beyond what they say they're starting it for -- they say they need
the electricity because we cut off their heavy fuel in response to their violation of the Agreed Framework -- but if
they go beyond that and start to reprocess the spent fuel that is at the facility, they could have another several
nuclear weapons in a matter of, let's say, six months. So that would take them from two to six. We don't like that. We
don't believe this is their best interest. It's certainly not in the best interest of the region or the world.
But it is not yet a crisis that requires mobilization or for us to be threatening North Korea. Quite the contrary, we
have been saying to North Korea that we have no plans to invade you, we have no hostile intent towards you. You have
people who are starving. We are the biggest food provider to the people of North Korea as part of the World Food
Program. So we have no ill intent toward North Korea, but we are deeply concerned about some of the actions they have
taken over the years to proliferate weapons of mass destruction throughout the world, to sell this kind of technology
throughout the world.
And I think it was quite right for the President to say that clearly when he gave his State of the Union speech.
Remember, the State of the Union speech where he called them part of the "axis of evil" was 11 months ago. They started
this new program four year ago. And so we finally found out about the program and called them on it. We were in the
process of negotiations with them. I went and met with the foreign minister of North Korea in Brunei at the end of July.
We sent in Assistant Secretary Kelly to let them know that there were things we could do for their country, but they had
to stop this kind of activity.
And their response has not been an encouraging one. And for that reason the President is keeping all of his options on
the table, but we're leading with the diplomatic option because it's important for everybody to realize this is a
problem not just for the United States but for the region and for the world.
MR. BLITZER: When I hear you say that the President is leaving all of his options on the table, that normally is
codeword for the military option as well.
SECRETARY POWELL: He has a military option. We're not bringing it up to the front, because it's not necessary to do so.
Everybody knows what our military capacity is. Secretary Rumsfeld made it clear earlier this week that we have the
capacity to deal with any emergency or situation that might arise. But keep in mind that, you know, we try to solve
things peacefully, notwithstanding the reputation we sometimes enjoy as always reaching for a gun. It is rather
interesting that over the last several days everybody is wondering why isn't the United States reaching for a gun.
And the answer is we believe that there are still options available to us that focus on political and diplomatic tools
that the international community can bring to bear on this problem. North Korea is already paying a price for this
misbehavior. Japan was on the way to normalization. It was on the way to providing a huge economic package for North
Korea if they went down that normalization route. The new president-elect of South Korea wants to reach out to North
Korea. President-elect Roh -- that was part of his platform. But now he has had to speak out strongly about North Korea
behavior as a result of what the North Koreans have done.
And so there are ways to mobilize the international community. And as President Jiang Zemin came to Crawford and spent
a lot of time with President Bush discussing this situation -- this took more time than any other agenda item at
Crawford -- and the Chinese came out and said clearly we will not support any nuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. We
don't want to see it. We don't want it. And so the North Koreans are now running in the face of that opposition from the
Chinese as well. So they are buying themselves problems and we're going to try to find a way to get out of this
situation without letting it escalate to a crisis level.
MR. BLITZER: Is it time for the UN Security Council to be brought into the situation?
SECRETARY POWELL: I have been in close touch with all of my permanent colleagues in the Security Council and I had a
conversation with Kofi Annan the day before yesterday about it. I don't know if it's time for the Security Council to do
anything. The International Atomic Energy Agency will be meeting on the 6th of January, or thereabouts, to consider what
North Korea has done, and the Board of Governors of the IAEA at that time will make a judgment as to whether or not they
will report these actions to the United Nations. But we are not waiting for the beginning of the year to table a
resolution before the Security Council.
MR. BLITZER: This "tailored containment" that the administration has discussed, one element --
SECRETARY POWELL: I've only read about this term in the paper this morning.
MR. BLITZER: So is there no such thing?
SECRETARY POWELL: There is no plan that has a title "tailored containment" on it. It's an interesting phrase. I don't
object to the phrase. But to suggest that it is some grand strategy that we have, no. We have a strategy that we have
been executing on. We have kept our friends and allies closely informed about developments. We have shared the
intelligence. We have made it clear to the North Koreans that there are ways to communicate. But we will not enter a
negotiation where they sit there and say, "What will you pay us for our misbehavior? How will you appease our
misbehavior this time?"
We've made it clear to everyone that the Agreed Framework dealt with the facility at Yongbyon, but it was a marvelous
act of misdirection. While we were watching Yongbyon, they were creating an enriched uranium capability elsewhere in the
country. And so they have to be held to account for this. So there are ways for them to talk to us. We know how to get
in touch with them. And we are hoping that sooner or later a way will be found, either with us or with other members of
the international community, to find a solution to this situation.
MR. BLITZER: It looks -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- you were Chairman of the Joint Chiefs a dozen years ago during
the first Gulf War. With the deployment of all these troops and now the Hospital Ship Comfort, it looks like the train
is leaving the station.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, the train is being loaded. The President has not made a decision to go to war. But what
Secretary Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs of Staff are doing are prudent measures to get ready for whatever might be
required. And it's to make it absolutely clear to the world, and to Saddam Hussein especially, that if he does not come
into compliance with this UN resolution, if he is not fully cooperative, and if he is found to be not fully cooperative
and cheating, and military action is necessary and if the President finds it appropriate to make that decision, we'll be
ready to execute.
MR. BLITZER: But they already are, as you just said a few weeks ago, they are in material breach?
SECRETARY POWELL: They are, once again, in material breach. It's another material breach on top of many previous
material breaches. And the patience of the international community is running thin here, it seems to me. And January
will be an important month as Dr. Blix of UNMOVIC and Dr. El Baradei of IAEA report to the Council on their findings and
how cooperative Iraq is being.
MR. BLITZER: Will Saudi Arabia be with the United States if it comes down to another war?
SECRETARY POWELL: My view is that Saudi Arabia has been cooperative with us in the global war against terrorism. They
are open to the proposals that we have made to them about what might be needed. But I don't want to speak for the
Government of Saudi Arabia as to what they have said yes to and no to or where they might be at some point in the
future. They have been good friends of ours in the past and I would expect them to be good friends in the future as
well.
MR. BLITZER: And you saw the story in The New York Times today that they've already --
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I don't want to comment on these military eaches. I'll leave that to my Pentagon colleagues to
say what they wish to about it.
MR. BLITZER: As far as the Israeli-Palestinian situation is concerned, there was an editorial in The New York Times
this past week. Among other things, it said this: "By waiting to unveil the roadmap until after the new Israeli
government is formed, which could be several months, Washington seems to be hoping to wrap this problem into a broader
recasting of the region after regime change in Iraq. That is a dangerous gamble."
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, that's their opinion of what we're trying to do. What we're trying to do is put down a roadmap
and put it down in a way that it will be received with some favor on both sides. And it was our judgment when the
Quartet met earlier this month that we were close to finishing the roadmap and it was a pretty good way forward, but to
introduce it at this stage with the Israeli election underway, that might not be the best environment in which to
introduce this roadmap. A delay of a few weeks I don't think will be significant, will make a significant difference.
And, in fact, the best roadmap in the world will not produce anything if the terror doesn't stop. And so our focus
still has to be on ending terror and achieving some level of security so that both sides can operate in some sense of
security and some understanding that by moving forward in the roadmap they will not simply be opening themselves up to
more acts of terror and violence.
MR. BLITZER: And just very briefly because I know we're running out of time, Arafat, Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian
Authority president, does he have a role in any of this?
SECRETARY POWELL: He has been a failed leader and we continue to believe he's a failed leader. That's why we hope that
new leaders will emerge. We would like to see a prime minister emerge who has authority to act and we would like to see
elections of the kind that will give the Palestinian people a chance to determine whether or not new leadership might
end this horrible situation that they find themselves in.
MR. BLITZER: Finally, a new leader in Kenya elected today, ending a quarter of a century or so of Daniel arap Moi's
rule. Is this good for the United States?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I think it's good for Kenya, frankly, to see that they can have a successful election, and it
was an open election and one that was relatively free of violence. So it was good. The democratic process worked and I'm
pleased that President Moi stepped down in accordance with that democratic process.
The president-elect has made a commitment to ending corruption, to economic development, and to social advancement
within the country, and if he moves forward on that agenda it will be good for Kenya, good for the Kenyan people, and of
course good for relations with the United States. We have good relations with Kenya now and I expect that they'll be
improved in the future.
MR. BLITZER: And good luck to you. I know you've had an incredibly busy day today. Good luck with all these so-called
crises. I'm going to catch my breath, by the way.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, it's interesting to remember, you know, last year the crisis was India and Pakistan. Everybody
was afraid that a nuclear war was about to break out there. And the international community then came together, worked
with the two parties. We still have a difficult situation in Kashmir, but at least the threat of war has receded
considerably. They're both deescalating. And I hope that in this new year we'll find a way for the two sides to begin a
dialogue on all of the issues that are outstanding between India and Pakistan, to include Kashmir.
MR. BLITZER: The whole world is looking towards you to do it.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Wolf. Happy New Year.
MR. BLITZER: Happy New Year. Thank you.
[End]